09:02:09 <kfafecgu> Why does the Saviour of NASA take a group achievement award and present it as a proof of individual glory? twitter.com/hyc_symas/status/1203709575226183683
11:58:24 <fatcat[m]> There is an interesting project called haven protocol(XHV) which is a fork of monero. XHV hosts `private` assets called xAssets. The only xAsset on XHV right now is xUSD. Other xAssets such as xGOLD, xBTC, xTESLA, xEURO, etc, ... will be available on XHV in the near future.
11:59:23 <charolastra> private assets?
12:00:36 <fatcat[m]> Yes.
12:00:45 <fatcat[m]> xAssets are implemented as colored coins on XHV blockchain.
12:01:07 <fatcat[m]> How do monero guys think about xAssets?
12:01:43 <charolastra> sounds like NFTs or other centralised stuff
12:01:51 <fatcat[m]> It's not NFT.
12:02:09 <charolastra> but is it centralized?
12:02:17 <fatcat[m]> Each xAsset is totally as fungible as XHV. It's decentralized.
12:02:47 <fatcat[m]> It's also centralized because developers have to add each xAsset manually to the codebase.
12:03:04 <fatcat[m]> Addition of a new xAsset is not permissionless.
12:03:06 <dEBRUYNE> You lose a bit of privacy though as during the minting process the commitment of the output is revealed
12:03:11 <dEBRUYNE> So the amount is public
12:03:31 <fatcat[m]> After conversion, privacy is preserved.
12:03:51 <fatcat[m]> You can also buy xUSD directly on exchanges.
12:03:52 <fatcat[m]>  * You can also buy xAssets directly on exchanges.
12:04:17 <fatcat[m]> Obviously, xAssets open up new possibilities.
12:04:55 <fatcat[m]> For example, you can hold private stablecoins on XHV for stability.
12:05:13 <fatcat[m]> But, XMR itself has been quite stable.
12:05:27 <fatcat[m]>  * But, XMR itself has been quite stable. XMR is not as volatile as bitcoin.
12:06:28 <fatcat[m]> I like the idea of holding xGOLD and other private stablecoins as a short-term investment tactic.
12:08:42 <charolastra> xGOLD sounds like gold certificates. i.e. not owning any gold at all
12:09:29 <fatcat[m]> xGOLD price will be fetched from chainlink which is a source of information implemented on top of blockchain.
12:09:59 <fatcat[m]> xUSD is still useful for US merchants who don't want to convert prices.
12:10:18 <charolastra> so you're just moving the oracle problem further away?
12:10:38 <dEBRUYNE> <fatcat[m]> After conversion, privacy is preserved. <= Still diminishes some of the privacy for the mainchain
12:10:55 <fatcat[m]> Blockchain price oracle itself cannot be hacked.
12:11:38 <charolastra> are you sure? the oracle problem hasn't been solved (and never will be IMO)
12:11:54 <fatcat[m]> <charolastra "are you sure? the oracle problem"> What do you mean?
12:12:15 <fatcat[m]> Defined `hasn't been solved`.
12:12:21 <fatcat[m]>  * Define `hasn't been solved`.
12:14:03 <charolastra> you need to pull information from the physical world into your P2P network. in a decentralised, permissionless way
12:14:11 <charolastra> noone can do that
12:15:04 <fatcat[m]> Chainlink is a decentralized blockchain.
12:15:15 <fatcat[m]>  * Chainlink is a decentralized blockchain that fetches price information from multiple sources.
12:15:48 <fatcat[m]> XHV is going to migrate from chainlink to another better project in the future.
12:21:29 <dEBRUYNE> Chainlink has had pricing problems in the past, fwiw
12:22:06 <dEBRUYNE> https://github.com/Synthetixio/SIPs/blob/master/sips/sip-65.md
12:23:54 <charolastra> there are also other issues: https://medium.com/@james.sangalli/why-chainlink-is-not-the-oracle-of-the-future-8bb859a81947
12:24:03 <fatcat[m]> Let's assume that price oracle works fine. I'm sure that they will work out issues over time. What do you think of the possibilities of xAssets?
12:24:27 <fatcat[m]> XHV is going to migrate away from chainlink.
12:26:01 <rupee[m]> what keeps an xAsset's price in line with the underlying Asset? Can you just always create/redeem xAsset at the Asset price?
12:26:22 <fatcat[m]> As long as price oracle works fine, yes
12:28:11 <rupee[m]> so if xAsset is trading below the price of Asset, then I can simultaneously buy xAsset at market price and redeem them at the Asset price oracle price and profit?
12:28:43 <fatcat[m]> I am too tired to think through that.
12:29:08 <fatcat[m]> Maybe.
12:29:17 <charolastra> please continue your XHV advertisement during office hours
12:29:21 <fatcat[m]> If price oracle is working correctly, you won't be able to manipulate it.
12:30:16 <rupee[m]> what happens when all xAssets have been redeemed and there are no more outstanding, but the price is still below the Asset oracle price?  You can't have negative xAssets can you?
12:30:23 <fatcat[m]> I criticize every cryptocurrency project, by the way.
12:31:42 <fatcat[m]> <rupee[m] "what happens when all xAssets ha"> I have no idea about what you even mean.
12:33:47 <fatcat[m]> XHV is going to adopt Band as the primary oracle and ChainLink as the secondary.
12:34:55 <dEBRUYNE> rupee[m]: It's effectively a trade, you either burn XHV and mint xUSD, or burn xUSD and mint XHV
12:35:01 <dEBRUYNE> The oracle is used to determine the price
12:35:05 <rupee[m]> <fatcat[m] "I have no idea about what you ev"> thats because it didn't make sense. If there are no xAssets to redeem (i.e. all of them have been redeemed), then there's nothing trading in the open market because supply is zero
12:35:17 <rupee[m]> I didn't think it through before writing ;)
12:36:03 <fatcat[m]> In my mind, xLocalFiatCurrency is going to be useful for me and my country's local merchants.
12:36:44 <fatcat[m]> People will not have to convert prices.
12:36:50 <fatcat[m]>  * People will not have to convert prices for cryptocurrency payments.
12:37:25 <fatcat[m]> Payment window for an order can be as wide as days because there is no price conversion.
12:38:01 <fatcat[m]> If there is price conversion, because exchange rate exchanges, payment price changes multiple times in a day.
12:38:27 <fatcat[m]>  * If there is price conversion, because exchange rate fluctuates within a day, payment price changes multiple times in a day.
12:39:27 <fatcat[m]> Unless merchants denominate products in XMR, price conversion is going to be a headache for everyone involved.
12:39:47 <fatcat[m]>  * Unless merchants set the prices in XMR, price conversion is going to be a headache for everyone involved.
12:45:05 <fatcat[m]> How do XMR merchants solve price conversion problem if they set the prices in their local fiat currencies?
12:47:22 <charolastra> they relay on an external authority to tell them the price. just as you would
12:48:27 <fatcat[m]> ????
12:49:00 <fatcat[m]> Merchants also have to deal with payment window.
12:49:24 <fatcat[m]> What if XMR price doubles within an hour?
12:49:48 <charolastra> then it doubles
12:49:52 <fatcat[m]>  * What if XMR price doubles within an hour? What if I failed to pay the right amount of XMR within payment window?
12:50:12 <fatcat[m]> Then, you kind of have to manually pay more or get partial refund.
12:51:25 <fatcat[m]> Manual payment processing is kind of acceptable for small merchants, but it's not going to fly at scale.
12:52:46 <fatcat[m]> Or, the merchant just sucks up and never changes the amount of XMR to be paid after an order is created.
12:52:51 <fatcat[m]>  * Or, a merchant just sucks up and never changes the amount of XMR to be paid after an order is created.
12:55:24 <charolastra> of course he has to suck it up. you agree to pay a equivalent amount to fiat _at that moment_. what if the dollar inflates 100% in one hour?
12:56:21 <fatcat[m]> xLocalFiatCurrency makes payment processing easier for merchants. I think monero can learn from xAssets.
15:14:06 <auirseouwt> Howard, you know why all the 'Titanic intelligence Saviour of NASA' posts stopped last year? They know you are an embarrassment. Your arse didn't learn anything new in 25 years, and that includes C++. They just can't say it to your face.
19:43:29 <sethsimmons> New URL (will be a new site at some point) may be of interest to some of you here ;):
19:43:29 <sethsimmons> bitcoinfungibility.cash
19:58:16 <geonic> perfect. I've had to hunt those down a few times
19:58:38 <sethsimmons> Trying to make this a one-stop shop for similar cases, so feel free to shoot me any you know of that have been missed!
19:59:11 <geonic> I'd maybe add a screenshot as a backup in case any of these get deleted
19:59:25 <sethsimmons> Hmm, that's a good idea
19:59:32 <sethsimmons> I'll have to go through and do that, thanks.
20:14:50 <geonic> sure thing. here are two more if you find them interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/34yvtf/coinbase_is_behaving_like_big_brothermonitoring/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/comments/5rdj9z/account_closed_for_receiving_bug_bounties/
20:14:50 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Account closed for receiving bug bounties? (self.CoinBase) | 3 points (100.0%) | 3 comments | Posted by FoundTheStuff | Created at 2017-02-01 - 04:45:17
22:24:51 <thwbamexvdm> I think everyone here knows that most Monero exchange withdrawals and desposits are traceable (Breaking Monero - poisoned outputs). How does it feel to go out and lie to people that they are private and then earn less than holding BTC on your bag?
22:41:25 <fatcat[m]> <thwbamexvdm "I think everyone here knows that"> XMR is far more private than BTC.
22:41:32 <fatcat[m]> Nobody said XMR has perfect privacy.
22:42:08 <fatcat[m]> People usually don't tell when XMR loses privacy, though. The problem with cryptocurrency communities is that they usually don't talk about caveats.
22:42:18 <fatcat[m]> It's a problem with every cryptocurrency community.
22:42:24 <fatcat[m]> They don't discuss caveats.
22:42:49 <fatcat[m]> We are not used-car dealers, guys. We better tell caveats to inform others.
22:42:49 <nioc> fatcat[m]: it's a spam bot
22:43:02 <fatcat[m]> Fuck.
22:43:06 <nioc> lol
22:43:09 <fatcat[m]> It's not even a human?
22:43:23 <nioc> somewhere there is a human
22:43:43 <fatcat[m]> Is it a human or a bot?
22:44:12 <nioc> never mind that breaking monero was produced by,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, monero
22:44:24 <fatcat[m]> Did a human install bots that broadcast messages to various places?
22:44:28 <nioc> bots don't make themselves
22:44:38 <nioc> not yet
22:45:06 <fatcat[m]> When autonomic singlarity happens, bots will install themselves.
22:45:24 <fatcat[m]> That's when psyop agents increase.
22:47:40 <fatcat[m]> Anyway, I think it's a bit dishonest to say that monero has perfect privacy.
22:48:12 <fatcat[m]> Monero-wallet-cli warns sweep_account can compromise privacy.
22:48:24 <fatcat[m]> Often, you want to churn UTXOs to improve privacy.
22:49:22 <nioc> nobody claims that it has perfect privacy
22:49:54 <nioc> hence why monero produced breaking monero
22:51:02 <fatcat[m]> We better be a bit proactive about informing people of flaws in monero's privacy.
22:51:18 <fatcat[m]> Otherwise, we are just like used-car dealers who never tell flaws.
22:51:54 <nioc> did I just write something above?
22:53:31 <fatcat[m]> I pointed out a general problem in cryptocurrency projects. Cryptocurrency projects generally behave like used-car sellers who don't reveal caveats.
22:54:06 <fatcat[m]> Marketing 101.
22:54:19 <fatcat[m]>  * Marketing 101, don't talk about flaws in what you are selling.
22:54:34 <fatcat[m]> If you sell BTC, don't talk about transaction fees.
22:57:06 <nioc> yes bagholders often are not straight forward
22:58:23 <nioc> and sometimes they themselves don't understand what they are holding
22:59:26 <apotheon> fatcat[m]: Don't talk about settlement speed, either.