04:45:09 anon_82641[m]> Looking forward to stallman's response <-- "It's a trap" 11:10:27 Meeting at #monero-events for Monero Village at Defcon planning staff in about seven hours. 11:10:29 https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/565/ 11:33:46 We (Monero Village) just had the only message on Reddit removed by moderators. 11:33:54 Reason: Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/Monero. 11:33:54 Moderators remove posts from feeds for a variety of reasons, including keeping communities safe, civil, and true to their purpose. 11:35:04 This is quite ridiculous. Those of us who dislike Facebook, Reddit, and other antisocial networks usually don't post there even if we think our informative messages would positively help the community. 11:35:19 So posting a informative message and having it blocked is quite strange. 11:35:47 The title of the rejected message is 'Second Monero Village staff meeting'. 11:37:06 It was 25 lines long (14 without whitespace.) 12:38:12 needmoney90: ^ 12:39:13 link? 12:39:31 msvb-mob: ^ 12:39:32 And are you sure it was "removed by moderators" and not a bot? 12:40:06 needmoney90: I think a bot created the message that the post was 'removed by moderators'. 12:40:12 Thanks Inge-. 12:40:16 Because like. I'm not sure if you've noticed. But we don't have any reason to have issue here....calling it ridiculous seems a bit of an overreaction for an automated action. 12:40:41 You could consider calming down and just linking the post like everyone else who gets filtered by a bot :/ 12:41:25 Maybe the word is wrong, I can't think of another one. The criticism is not intended to be offensive, if you prefer a rewording then 'a filter that rejects messages of this kind is very poor.' 12:41:55 Link the post. I'll take a look. 12:42:14 I'll try to find a link now. 12:42:45 I thsnk you bith for the work you do for Monero <3 12:43:06 thank both* obviously a mobile phone keyboard is not for me. 12:45:19 How can one find a message that was removed in Reddit? 12:47:35 It appears we totally lost the content of the Monero Village announcement, this is too bad. I don't see it anywhere in my account, and it's not searchable either. 12:48:03 Thanks for trying anyway needmoney90. Hopefully see you later today during the staff meeting on #monero-events. 12:48:16 The message in your inbox should have it 12:48:20 a link to the removed post 12:48:24 either that or your post histor 12:48:25 history 12:48:27 You too Inge-, and bring the neighbors, family, and some strangers as well. 12:48:38 there is nothing a mod can do to make a post black hole like that 12:48:53 Are you sure you have no link to it? It would be very strange if it does not exist anymore 12:49:01 What does your inbox message say? 12:49:14 What is the link to the post history (just find your own and share the last /sub/location/? 12:49:55 should be reddit.com/u/username 12:50:04 Clicking the envelope icon that tooltips 'Messages' and selecting 'All' and then wildcard searching the page for 'Village' results in zero finds. 12:50:30 it should be one of the most recent things in your post history. 12:50:40 I found it by following your suggestion /u/username/ that is the history. 12:50:43 The link is: 12:50:47 ...wait for it. 12:50:55 No talking. 12:50:57 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/msp349/second_monero_village_staff_meeting/ 12:50:58 [REDDIT] Second Monero Village staff meeting (self.Monero) | 1 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by hwalguy | Created at 2021-04-17 - 11:32:42 12:51:41 According to the rejection system, 'Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/Monero. 12:51:41 Moderators remove posts from feeds for a variety of reasons, including keeping communities safe, civil, and true to their purpose.' 12:51:49 This is strange - It's not actually in modqueue 12:51:53 automod appears to have removed it 12:52:03 I believe some link in your post has triggered reddit's filters themselves 12:52:08 It was not on our end, for sure. 12:52:12 In case we need filter improvements, let's please remember the reason while reading the actual text. And you may then agree with my choice of word 'rediculous.' 12:52:14 This is not one of our filters. 12:52:38 So control over the filter that removed this is somewhere else, right? 12:52:46 Reddit did it 12:53:10 there is no possible control we can have on the subreddit level to handle that post, for some reason. Other than manually approving. 12:53:16 But it doesnt even show up in our modqueue for approval 12:53:25 Okay. What do you suggest needmoney90? We have no ability to pass the filter right? Should I just repost the text? 12:53:29 I approved it. 12:53:40 Next time just link the post and let me handle it, if it seems to be black holed for some reason. 12:54:19 A very strange reason of course, if you read the text I can't imagine a more mild semantic content. 12:54:33 Thank you needmoney90 for taking the time to find and approve the message. 15:19:21 glad it worked out 15:20:29 sethsimmons: loved your comments to Jimmy Song. To the point and no unecessary Monero shilling (which was already handled by the WBD podcast anyway) 15:42:55 rehrar: you know with some of the research tasks being funnelled towards CypherStack - what happens to the rep and goodwill (IP in most jurisdictions) from the research? 15:43:20 Inge-: Jimmy Song is a class A idiot 15:43:32 said it before and will continue saying it over and over and over 15:45:08 midipoet: I think that was answered already 15:45:15 ah ok - where? 15:45:17 everything from the CCS will be copyright monero project 15:45:23 if that's what you meant 15:45:30 thats the tangible outputs 15:45:35 it's the intangible outputs 15:45:57 ie. "CypherStack devs create Triptych" 15:46:33 i only ask, as i have seen these sorts of issues flare up... 15:46:55 ^ not in Monero mind you - just in general business land 16:41:55 Triptych was made before sarang joined Cypher Stack so that wouldn't be a thing. 16:42:05 But you're asking if someone under my employ made a brand new privacy protocol, for example? 16:53:13 midipoet: 17:58:47 Monero Village at Defcon 29 (2021 hybrid hotel and online) meeting on #monero-events in one minute. 18:51:07 rehrar: no, I don't think that is the concern. It's more whether Cypher Stack LLC (aside from the research) benefits from being funded by the CCS for Monero research 18:52:15 for example, if some other firm employed Cypher Stack on the back of the work (and reputation) funded by the CCS for Monero 18:52:26 I don't necessarily have the answer, mind you 18:52:32 bigboy: say again. You weren't voiced, but you are now. Sorry. 18:52:36 Nor do I know what is strictly good or bad 18:53:12 Like, if sarang has his own LLC, and his LLC was funded/invoiced by the CCS, then at least it would all be self contained. 18:53:48 ...umm. yes Cypher Stack will benefit in these ways. 18:53:52 The way it is now, Cypher Stack receives the goodwill, brand building, and reputation, alongside sarang. 18:54:16 Correct. 18:58:18 midipoet: please explain the parts where you think this is bad. 18:58:50 hi im a computer science student interested in contributing to monero, where should i start? 19:00:14 rehrar: I don't necessarily think it's bad. I just see quite a lot of resources being pointed towards you and Cypher Stack LLC 19:00:22 And I wonder if that is the best idea 19:00:37 Not a judgement on you or Cypher Stack, but in general 19:00:52 bigboy: Are you actively doing mining, running a node, using the core wallet, or speaking a foreign language? I'm not sure where to start but they are relevant questions aren't they? 19:00:53 bigboy: what are your current skills? We can see about connecting you to a place that fits with your current skill set. 19:01:05 It's like, we scream decentralisation, and then house a pack of Devs and points CCS funds to a LLC 19:01:19 So I wonder how that is different to a foundation 19:01:25 hint. It's not 19:01:36 If anything, it's shadier! 19:02:25 Lol 19:02:48 Most devs are independently on the CCS or volunteer. 19:03:24 The majority of devs have no affiliation with a company, which is very VERY different than a foundation that employs the majority, if not all, of devs for a project. 19:03:48 What other things does Cypher Stack handle besides one researcher and a sysadmin? 19:03:50 I know some python, sql, networking (Cisco IOS), some powershell. I am interested in using this as an opportunity to improve my knowledge about coding, networking and cryptography in general. 19:04:22 Isn't sysadmin v/similar to DevOps? 19:04:29 Or am I completely mistaken? 19:04:56 Not to mention there was talk on the GitLab of Firo also hiring research 19:05:22 So if sarang gets folded into Cypher Stack, does Cypher Stack get that contract as well? 19:05:39 As opposed to, I don't know. Monero Research Lab LLC, Foundation, or whatever 19:05:42 That contract with Firo is literally a Cypher Stack contract. 19:06:16 Cypher Stack has sarang as an employee and has contracted him out to one project, and wants to contract him out to this project also. 19:06:42 Where does that end? 19:07:20 When he runs out of hours to contract out? :P 19:08:08 Sure sure. 19:08:27 Looks, up to ye. I don't think the whole thing has been that transparent, and hasn't for a while 19:08:46 What is not transparent about this? 19:08:57 wen hats for bats? 19:09:10 Well at the moment, the CCS is being asked to pay an LLC 19:09:12 bigboy: you're not forgotten, don't worry. 19:09:18 We have no idea what happens in between 19:09:20 I'll talk to you soon. Feel free to send me a PM. 19:09:36 and unisex thongs 19:09:37 We just trust that all is above board as we trust you and sarang 19:09:45 midipoet: sarang gets a paycheck, Cypher Stack makes a profit. 19:10:05 I see 19:10:12 Well, that's more transparent then the CCS 19:10:38 Good guides to get up to speed: https://web.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf https://masteringmonero.com/ 19:10:41 The CCS outlines deliverables dude. 19:11:34 thank you I will look at this after my exams 19:12:25 rehrar: as far as I understood it, it didn't outline the profit margin that Cypher Stack LLC? 19:12:35 The profit margin was not outlined, no. 19:12:49 And that you expect it to be is a little silly. :) 19:13:02 rehrar: perhaps 19:13:13 I won't engage any further, lest I say something I regret. 19:13:19 I don't agree with the set up 19:13:29 But carry on, if you feel that's the way to go 19:13:48 Cool. Someone else is free to poach sarang from me with better pay and benefits and set up what they think is the correct way for all of this to be done. 19:14:30 You're absolutely free to voice your concerns, even if they're harsh midipoet. I would never ask someone to not speak what they're thinking just to spare my feelings. 19:14:56 General community consensus is obtained about whether or not to merge the CCS, same as it's ever been 19:20:36 At the end of the day, some people need a stable check and/or healthcare benefits. Unfortunately in some countries like the US, universal healthcare is not a thing so US based contributors can't be faulted for utilizing a system that gives them that desired stability. Even if say, Core was to do something like use Open Collective to get stable automatic reoccuring donations, that still wouldn't address other 19:20:36 things like healthcare persay. Granted one could pay for it privately, but I think hopefully the point is carried 19:22:28 tl;dr: It would be nice if there was a magical 'decentralized' solution that gave USA contributors money and easy healthcare, but there's not TMK, so we have to make do with reality 19:23:52 * tl;dr: It would be nice if there was a magical 'decentralized' solution that gave USA contributors stable money and easy healthcare, but there's not TMK, so we have to make do with reality 19:26:54 I'm personally a fan of more money going into privacy research, more stability for researchers, more competition / more coins challenging each other to drive better products. Normalizing privacy and getting people talking about it is a great thing. It's like when multiple physical businesses of the same category naturally group together in meatspace and create go-to destinations for certain product. 19:31:12 * I'm personally a fan of more money going into privacy research, more stability for researchers, more competition / more coins challenging each other to drive better products. Normalizing privacy and getting people talking about it is a great thing. It's like when multiple physical businesses of the same category naturally group together in meatspace and create go-to destinations for certain product.. In 19:31:12 the long run, it's good for everyone. 19:31:13 Yes, I think it's worth noting that if the community is not careful and fails to provide the stability some researchers or coders they desire, there's the very real risk they'll understandably contribute to a coin that might have a pre-mine, etc so they can continue advancing privacy and getting paid, and that project may have a license that isn't compatible w/ Monero's 19:35:58 xmrscott[m]: a not for profit entity could provide all, no? 19:36:08 which would essentially be a Foundation, no? 19:36:26 you can make a foundation 19:36:36 yes, i know that thanks 19:36:42 but i am not the one in need of one 19:36:50 ok, someone else can 19:36:51 i am suggesting an alternative 19:37:01 sure, why bother 19:37:04 we have an LLC 19:37:10 and it makes profit from the CCS! 19:37:14 win win 19:37:17 rant over 19:39:14 People who speak two languages (including English) don't need to contribute that second language to the project, but they do because they perceive a need 19:39:46 If folk truly believe there's value to make a non-profit foundation for the project, they'd do so 19:40:30 xmrscott[m]: why would they, when instead they can make profit? 19:40:57 we are literally building the exact same system as the system before, just with different tech 19:41:20 So make something new that solves the problem then. Easy. 19:41:47 the problem is solved, and was never my problem in the first place anyway! 19:43:50 Glad to hear it's solved 20:16:00 Unfortunately I'm not a rich man to be able to make a non-profit and run it with out of the goodness of my heart. I gotta make a living. 20:16:32 midipoet: if you think it'd be better to make a non profit instead of me making money off of this, we can consider withdrawing the proposal. 20:17:09 i don't have the answer to this. 20:17:20 Or if you're suggesting neither non profit nor LLC then the end result of a withdrawn proposal can still be the same. 20:17:34 i mean, my ideology is my own and i am not even sure if its "right" 20:18:15 Well I certainly don't want to build a reputation for myself of taking advantage of the community or abusing my positions of power or abusing my goodwill. 20:18:28 If you really think something like this would do that, it's something for me to consider. 20:18:30 i don't think you are abusing the community 20:19:20 but i think it's fair for the community to know that there is a profit margin somewhere to an LLC 20:19:27 that is a different model than before 20:19:36 and if that then the way we want to go 20:19:49 well. i better fire up my own company for the next CCS i do, i tell you that much 20:19:52 why wouldn't i? 20:20:02 its +20% straight away 20:20:07 yay 20:20:19 Fair because anyone who does business with a community like Monero should expect a greater degree of transparency? Or fair because the aforementioned stuff is true, and doubly so for me as a person in a position of power? 20:20:53 how is this more advantageous for sarang than the previous arrangement? 20:21:00 Because if just the first, well, again, we didn't demand profit margins from quarkslab or trail of bits. 20:21:22 or him just setting up some legal fictitious entity to appease insurance companies, etc? 20:21:24 So past precedent says we don't enforce a higher standard in anyone and everyone working with the community. 20:21:48 That said, if someone was to outright say they expect more of me because of my position, role, and power in this community, that would be a valid point. 20:21:56 But nobody outright says it. Just beats around the bush. 20:22:02 And I don't play those games. ;) 20:22:10 sarang work for the community is worth X 20:22:31 what's the advantage of him going through this procedure where it's X-Y 20:22:35 so a netloss for him 20:22:50 ComplyLast: this has been answered several times actually. 20:22:59 the stability of the paycheck 20:23:02 and the insurance angle 20:23:11 but I still fail to grasp it tbh 20:23:30 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mn3irk/triptych_research_and_optimizations_a_new_ccs/gtvol5u 20:23:31 [REDDIT] Triptych research and optimizations - a new CCS proposal for Sarang, an MRL researcher, is open for comment/feedback! (https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/222) to r/Monero | 76 points (96.0%) | 19 comments | Posted by fort3hlulz | Created at 2021-04-08 - 22:43:27 20:24:02 BinaryFate came up with a good one too of getting mortgages or the like. It's much cleaner. 20:24:06 thanks 20:24:16 I guess his own LLC would provide much of that 20:24:19 hence my question 20:24:25 You can't walk into a bank to get a mortgage for a house and show them CCS proposals as income. 20:24:27 just curious 20:24:33 I don't care if you make a buck 20:24:39 ComplyLast: true. But you're assuming he wants to run an LLC. 20:24:41 just seems inefficient 20:24:59 You're assuming he wants to do the taxes, the filing, the upkeep, etc. 20:25:04 All of which is unpaid work btw. 20:25:11 if he is your only employer and also your own source of incoming 20:25:18 He is not. 20:25:20 I guess he doesn't that's fairly obvious 20:25:22 oh ok 20:25:26 that part I didn't know 20:25:31 Cypher Stack has been around for three years. 20:26:07 We were primarily a design firm before. But we've expanded. Took on a sysadmin and sarang as well as the three UI/UX/graphic designers/illustrators that we have now. 20:26:29 ok 20:26:42 so it's essentially like hiring one of those firms that we do for audits 20:27:10 if you ever try to, or become close to, becoming blockstream of Monero we will have to fuck you up though. 20:27:15 (: 20:27:34 I'm happy to answer these kinds of questions or concerns. If you have any more, lay them on me. 20:27:39 ComplyLast midipoet 20:27:55 No concerns, no further questions 20:27:56 Discussion is good. It shows we don't accept these as they are handed to us. Important for sure. 20:28:02 thanks for the input 20:28:35 I don't see any meaningful difference on hiring your entity for this type of stuff 20:28:40 while hiring entities for audits 20:29:06 If anything you'd be closer to the monero ecosystem so potentially some merits there 20:29:59 You guys will absolutely (and already have) get benefits. Free work out of me and my people, and my interests are aligned with Monero. 20:30:00 yes, i agree. lets continue to hire companies from the CCS 20:30:06 outstanding 20:30:16 midipoet: sarcasm doesn't convey well over the internet. Best to speak plainly. 20:30:17 I don't say it's great midipoet 20:30:27 I don't see a difference 20:30:33 the precedent is well established 20:30:35 midipoet: genuinely interested then. How do you suggest we do audits? 20:30:43 Approach individuals from audit companies to do this stuff on the side? 20:31:08 i never said i had the answers 20:31:20 LOL! 20:31:26 I mean, you need to have some midipoet 20:31:28 why so funny? 20:31:35 right 20:31:44 well what about a not for profit? 20:31:48 a foundation? 20:31:50 a charity? 20:31:54 We should NOT hire companies from the CCS. But I have no alternative of how some important tasks that companies might do would get done. 20:31:54 a co-op? 20:31:58 any of the above 20:32:05 anyway I think there's a huge demand for anonymous individuals to continue working on monero 20:32:08 instead of paying a profit margin to a LLC? 20:32:17 ComplyLast: agree 20:32:22 or even turn MRL into a not-for-profit 20:32:31 midipoet: ew. That last one would be even worse. 20:32:42 it may well be 20:32:47 i don't know 20:32:48 midipoet, the only rule I can potentially agree (emphasis on potentially) would be that funds owned by core shouldn't (maybe) be used to fund for proffit ventures 20:32:59 (it might lead to some fuckery and dubious practices) 20:33:10 ComplyLast: I think that's reasonable. 20:33:13 well there is the whole for profit thing from the regulators 20:33:15 but if individuals want to, more power to them 20:33:16 but ANYWAY! 20:33:36 i won't get into that, as i know its not the reason for this chat 20:33:42 but its an aside, that's for sure 20:33:42 If I want to donate to something, knowing it's a for profit venture and I still think it would benefit monero, why shouldn't i? 20:33:51 I don't quite understand the aside. 20:33:53 Can you elaborate? 20:33:59 genuinely didn't understand the wording 20:34:04 same thing for Cake Wallet doing a CCS 20:34:10 would you be against it midipoet? 20:34:22 or coral reef? 20:34:26 or the audits 20:34:48 rehrar, the FATF wish for developers who are instigating code on a for profit basis to be held liable for how that code is used 20:34:51 CCS is just a ficticious construction where individuals are free to choose which projects to support 20:34:56 ie. they (or the company) is teh VASP 20:34:58 *the 20:35:02 something about that money lining their pockets or promoting bitcoin adoption 20:35:09 monero community has self esteem problems 20:35:18 midipoet, that hasn't come to pass yet 20:35:23 no, it hasn't 20:35:30 which is why i said "an aside" 20:35:35 if it does it's a sarang and rehrar problem 20:35:36 midipoet: ah, got it 20:35:38 not Monero 20:35:46 but i would hazard a guess that's the direction it will go 20:36:09 i don't want to speak for sarang, but he has always been wary of regulators going after devs 20:36:09 they might 20:36:25 and now falls into a "for profit" relationship with a blockchain network 20:36:39 If we get there we can reassess. 20:36:55 For now, non-issue indeed. 20:37:03 not everyone wants to take moneromoo route 20:37:05 and that's fine 20:37:26 people have different threat models, prioritize stuff differently, and that's something we should respect 20:37:52 ComplyLast: of course, it's fine - but i think it's also fair that the community knows that an LLC is taking profit as well (as it was not the case before) 20:37:59 i can not be ok with it, while others are 20:38:04 that's fine as well! 20:38:05 As I said the only problem I see is using core funds because of the potential for funny business 20:38:54 imo it's clearly stated that Cypher Stack LLC, a for-profit company, has hired and is contracting out sarang for this work. Profit is implied. 20:39:26 If you want me to clearly state "Cypher Stack LLC will be making profit on this endeavor" for the people that can't see the blatantly obvious, I can add it to the proposal. 20:40:09 But calling this a failure of transparency is silly. It's like looking through a crystal clear window, and an individual closing their eyes tightly and complaining they can't see through the window. It's not the window's fault. 20:40:13 all that matters is the monero community's money going towards monero 20:40:17 otherwise you're getting played 20:40:34 eventually the ccs will become a joke 20:40:38 so will monero 20:40:46 if you ignore that risk anyway 20:41:01 endogenic: do you think the proposal we're discussing doesn't go to Monero? 20:41:25 not saying thay 20:41:31 Ah. Just a general statement. 20:41:36 well sarang is also employed through Cypher Stack LLC on other networks 20:41:39 you said that yourself 20:41:54 no. Sarang is employed by Cypher Stack 20:41:59 and is contracted out to other networks 20:42:09 that's what i said? 20:42:49 No. Your wording implies that Cypher Stack only exists as some sort of pass-through entity but the real employment comes from the projects. This is not true. Sorry for arguing semantics here, but some people have geniuinely thought this from the get go. 20:43:00 rehrar 20:43:14 let's say CCS pays Cypher Stack LLC for research 20:43:40 then research is good 20:43:44 Firo come along 20:43:55 and hire Cypher Stack LLC for said research + more research 20:44:34 rehrar i'm suggesting the way people can protect monero and judge whether something is good for it or not 20:44:42 endogenic: gotcha 20:46:13 midipoet: ok...let's say that? So what? 20:46:33 Or, let's say I have no active contracts and have sarang do the research I want him to do. Since he's my employee I still pay his salary. 20:47:47 rehrar: where does it end? 20:47:57 What the fuck do you even mean by this question? 20:48:03 The problem is simply things being taken from Monero with our partial consent 20:48:04 devs just flaunting services across chains? 20:48:19 should we hire in devs from other companies too? 20:48:27 yes 20:48:39 midipoet: if they will do work for Monero in exchange for money, yes. 20:48:55 now the question is how do you tell if something is for Monero and what % of it is for monero 20:49:02 endogenic: ye 20:49:31 When you take away the precedent of an independent researcher being able to be successfully funded by the community 20:50:10 yes, it's now a company we are paying for services 20:50:15 we may as well invoice them too 20:50:19 helps with tax 20:50:32 midipoet: in the real world, people pay companies for services 20:50:41 rehrar: thanks for the heads up 20:50:50 funnily i didn't know this! 20:50:56 no problem, you seemed genuinely confused 20:51:02 indeed 20:51:16 Even individuals like graphic artists send out invoices as my partner can attest 20:51:44 i was of the opinion that people contributing to open source, didn't 20:52:02 and that the CCS was a novel way of ensuring that contributors could get rewarded 20:52:06 but its obviously not 20:52:10 Anyways, I try to answer stuff like this because if I don't people get mad at me for not being transparent, and I want it to be shown I'm making this proposal in good faith. 20:52:11 and has changed into something else 20:52:21 But I have my limits of time to waste, and I've reached them. :) 20:52:36 mate, i checked out ages ago - and you asked me to come back into the convo 20:52:43 i was trying to work on the FATF response 20:53:01 Alright. Apologies then. That was stupid of me. 20:53:21 Everyone has a different idea of what the CCS is and should be. 20:53:32 but i will say now, quite clearly. next time i CCS, my company will be doing it 20:53:36 with a profit margin 20:53:52 that's fine 20:54:02 we've had this discussion when funding conferences, people going to conferences, reimbursement, for-profit endeavors, time-based proposal, project-based proposals, etc. 20:54:14 *le shock* 20:54:19 selsta: agree. If we're happy with the value exchange, it's no biggie. 20:54:29 If we think the price is too high, we'll ask for adjustment. 20:55:01 And that's not to say that the 'individuals' who have been making CCS's haven't already been marking up their work by a percentage to simulate a profit margin from a company either. 20:55:17 funding yourself via company is just a way of getting a little more money lol. Why not just ask for more? 20:56:48 because my impression was that people contributed because they gave a shit, not because they wanted a profit margin 20:57:06 and it seemed to be proven by the ridiculously low rates that some people charged 20:57:23 as it was a side gig, or hobby, or something they wanted to improve in the world 20:57:32 but it seems that was mainly my own perception 20:57:48 nah that's a large part of OS, at least Monero, historically 20:58:29 for sarang it's not a side gig 20:58:29 Sorry midipoet last question actually. Would you be ok with it if it was a company doing it with no profit margin? 20:58:51 there were real issues that rehrar's solution addresses 20:58:58 If so, I may consider at-cost proposals in the future if it would be the most palatable for many in the community. 20:59:23 if they actually did it not-for-profit, as opposed to a throw away line in a CCS, of course. 20:59:35 why would i not think that better? 20:59:54 i mean the only person who benefits from the profit, is the profiteer, no? 20:59:57 unless i am mistaken? 21:00:08 because it seems you've been against the fact they were companies the whole time, so I'm just verifying and untangling 'company' from 'profit' 21:00:36 well, MAGIC was a not-for-profit 21:00:47 that the was the last sarang proposal (that i know of) 21:00:54 i didn't say anything there 21:00:56 I'm not against profit margin, they are needed, my last proposal had a bonus in it (profit margin). 21:01:10 midipoet: understood. Thank you for answering. 21:01:21 I'll take this into consideration for the future. 21:01:30 MAGIC is actually a charity though, now i think about it 21:01:35 maybe they can make profit 21:01:49 But if I do at-cost proposals everywhere, I won't make any money to live, would have to shut down the company, let sarang go back to not working on Monero at all, and get another job myself. 21:02:04 But if you say that Monero should be the only place I do at-cost proposals, well, I may not disagree with that either. 21:02:12 that's the real world for you rehrar 21:02:16 we're building a new one here 21:02:19 Receiving funding from MAGIC and receiving it from an employer are handled very differently in the US 21:02:25 i thought General Fund paid you to do work for Core? 21:02:39 midipoet: true. But this isn't enough for me to employ sarang from my own funds. :) 21:02:55 and my primary goal with hiring him on was to have him work on Monero things again 21:03:08 so I would be taken care of, absolutely. But we would be minus one sarang noether, which I think is a tragedy. 21:03:34 If that's a sacrifice some people are willing to make though in the interest of some arbitrary standard of purity, then perhaps that's what must be done. 21:04:16 I wasn't, and am still not, willing to make that sacrifice. So here we are. 21:04:28 i don't think its necessarily arbitrary, nor it is the view shared by everyone. 21:04:52 indeed, OS, was built (as far as i undertsand it) on a not-for-profit basis, no? 21:05:03 and yet, you wish to bring profit to the table 21:05:03 Please no. Monero moves because of research like that done by sarang (and surae et al) and implemented by moo 21:05:33