04:58:41 <shagel[m]> Hi all
06:34:13 <opypgfjnp> Why does the Saviour of NASA take a group achievement award and present it as a proof of individual glory? https://twitter.com/hyc_symas/status/1203709575226183683
07:44:12 <Inge-> john_r365: also one of the bigger potential privacy improvements come from signature aggregation, which is kind of like ring signatures, which will help in coinjoin/payjoin scenarios I believe - HOWEVER, that didn't make the cut for the taproot implementation, so unknown when/if it gets implemented. And amounts are still clear on BTC...  and will likely be so forever. also keep in mind that many financial
07:44:18 <Inge-> investors in BTC see the visibility on-chain as a big plus, and are vehemently opposed to privacy enhancements that would make their investment more shady by adding privacy. And a small side note: taproot would also make atomic swaps with e.g. XMR be indistinguishable from a regular taproot tx.
10:39:05 <mmxxx[m]> https://xmr.is/
10:39:32 <mmxxx[m]> Confirmation that xmr.is is legit?
10:44:28 <moneromooo> AFAIK it's fairly new.
10:44:34 <sech1> Can't confirm, never used it
10:45:06 <sech1> But an instant exchange with no KYC means 99% you'll get tainted BTC
10:57:44 <charolastra> good. the sooner >50% of wallets are marked as 'tainted', the better
11:33:46 <Joeri[m]> hi
12:21:19 <xrv0[m]> <mmxxx[m] "https://xmr.is/"> Seems untrustworthy. How are the decentralized?
12:21:23 <xrv0[m]> they
12:21:42 <mmxxx[m]> they aren't same as xmr.to wasn't
12:23:21 <xrv0[m]> Xmr.to didn't claim that they "use decentralized exchange protocol to manage transactions"
12:50:23 <john_r365> Inge - thanks for the reply. So in effect if/when signature aggregation gets implemented, you'll be able to do large coinswaps at lower transaction sizes, and "within" P2TR transactions, such that they're multisig - but you can't tell from the blockchain that they're multisig?
12:51:35 <sethsimmons> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mgf9fe/someone_is_doxxing_myself_and_other_monero/
13:06:24 <Inge-> john_r365: yeah I think so.
13:24:57 <PapuaHardyNet> I just read the chat logs re: NFT discussion
13:25:35 <PapuaHardyNet> NFTs are simply bubbles, right? Everyone knows that they have no inherent worth and never will, and are simply pumping and dumping the "assets"?
13:25:58 <PapuaHardyNet> s/are/is s/bubbles/a bubble
13:26:17 <charolastra> basicly yes. it's just cryptokitties reloaded
13:27:34 <charolastra> and if the cryptokitty site goes away, so do the kitties vanish
13:29:28 <PapuaHardyNet> so it's basically hype to create the impression that people want that NFT
13:29:45 <PapuaHardyNet> and every NFT seller has to shill their own NFT
13:30:13 <PapuaHardyNet> Isn't this good for the cryptocurrency economy as a whole? Shills would migrate to using NFT to make easy money instead of shilling shitcoins
13:36:36 <endor00[m]> I think it's bad, because it promotes the narrative that crypto-stuff is all a dumpster fire to the average joe who has no idea of the technical difference between "real" crypto and NFTs and tokens and stuff
13:37:30 <endor00[m]> They see all this money thrown around on useless garbage and it just reinforces their prejudice
13:38:38 <endor00[m]> And we've all seen just how problematic people with strong prejudices and unfounded ideas can be in the last year
13:40:46 <charolastra> let them. i don't see a problem
13:47:11 <charolastra> lets keep real. if they don't understand cryptocurrencies after 12 years of its existance, how will they understand NFTs? if they see it as a get rich quick scheme there's no hope
13:48:39 <PapuaHardyNet> but it is a get rich quick scheme
13:48:56 <PapuaHardyNet> aside from DRM there is no sensible use-case for NFTs
13:49:50 <moneromooo> Items in a game.
13:49:53 <PapuaHardyNet> (by DRM I also refer to the entire class of goods that can have a unique ID which can then be used as part of an NFT instead of tracking the ownership of the physical good itself)
13:50:01 <PapuaHardyNet> yeah, that too
13:50:38 <charolastra> afaik it works great for a ticketing system
13:52:52 <Mochi101> There is a sensible use case for NFTs
13:53:58 <Mochi101> You're only seeing how they're being used right now and imagining use cases from that.
13:55:21 <Mochi101> For example: I want to sell ownership in my company. I want everyone to make sure that their part of the ownership can never be diluted by more share creation. I want the share ownership to be freely transferable.
13:55:29 <Mochi101> Boom... use case for NFTs
13:55:59 <moneromooo> Rings a bell ^_^
13:56:17 <Mochi101> :)
13:59:08 <Mochi101> Probably a token with the amount of shares you want to issue would be better though.. Then you'd be able to sell partial shares.
13:59:24 <Mochi101> But if you didn't want people to be able to sell partial shares.
14:00:05 <Mochi101> The reason for that might be that you want to pay dividends.
14:00:16 <PapuaHardyNet> what if you sell the NFT and don't deliver the shares?
14:00:32 <Mochi101> The NFTs ARE the shares.
14:01:17 <PapuaHardyNet> NFTs aren't legally accepted as a representation of ownership though
14:01:29 <PapuaHardyNet> I feel like I am missing something
14:01:38 <Mochi101> dude... you're trying to get away from all of that regulation and need for middlemen
14:01:50 <Mochi101> Stop conforming to the systems the bankers have made you a slave to.
14:02:03 <PapuaHardyNet> huh
14:02:22 <charolastra> listen to the man
14:02:37 <PapuaHardyNet> Well, assuming that the party that creates and sells the NFTs is honest, then yes, NFTs are a strong case for what you describe
14:03:41 <Mochi101> DYODD
14:03:54 <Mochi101> Do Your Own Due Diligence
14:04:18 <PapuaHardyNet> aye. Just a heads up: NFTs don't prevent double-spending: I could create 20 NFTs that correspond to 10% of my onion service startup and sit back and watch the fireworks after they are sold
14:04:45 <PapuaHardyNet> the only places this idea will work out is where legal organizations cannot exist
14:05:25 <Mochi101> I'm not understanding what you're saying.
14:06:26 <PapuaHardyNet> Well, here's the scenario: I create 20 non-fungible tokens, each supposedly equivalent to owning 10% of shares of my sparkling new onion service startup
14:06:35 <Mochi101> ok
14:06:48 <PapuaHardyNet> I manage to sell >10 of them, say all 20
14:07:00 <Mochi101> So you sold your whole company?
14:07:25 <Mochi101> Twice over.
14:07:25 <PapuaHardyNet> even if I did do that, I sold 200% of my company's worth
14:07:39 <PapuaHardyNet> yes, which means the buyers are now in trouble
14:07:49 <Mochi101> This is where the DYODD comes in.
14:07:56 <PapuaHardyNet> yep, I agree with you there
14:08:15 <Mochi101> I still don't see a problem.
14:09:10 <PapuaHardyNet> Well, it all depends on the reputation of the person creating the NFTs. Isn't there no point of NFTs then? Why not simply rely on the words of the owner of the company?
14:09:14 <Mochi101> Which gambling site sold shares via investment in BTC and they payout a dividend to the BTC address all the time?
14:09:24 <Mochi101> I forget which... but it happened.
14:09:58 <PapuaHardyNet> well, I am sure someone will succeed with the investment model you propose
14:10:00 <tvgdzrhbknuv> Will you HODL XMR or dump it for Tari when it comes out? Will others?
14:10:38 <Mochi101> Tari is never coming out man... give it up.
14:10:49 <PapuaHardyNet> oh man I wish I could have an extended conversation with the troll. they always seem like they know some deep dark secret of monero, and in the end they rarely provide sources or write up something exstensive
14:11:07 <ieatglueinthegul> What's tari?
14:11:20 <sech1> Some NFT stuff
14:11:34 <Mochi101> lol
14:11:37 <gingeropolous> does it do contracts too?
14:11:46 <sech1> Everyting is NFT if it's not fungible
14:11:50 <Mochi101> Does emojis!
14:11:52 <sech1> therefore only Monero is not NFT
14:11:56 <gingeropolous> i always forget if its NFT or smart contracts
14:11:57 <Mochi101> LOTS of emojis
14:12:51 <sech1> <tvgdzrhbknuv> lazy today, only 1 channel spammed?
16:00:50 <donkeydonkey[m]> <mmxxx[m] "Confirmation that xmr.is is legi"> a friend used it and it worked
18:56:10 <PNK[m]> test.
18:57:12 <Mochi101> test failed
18:58:06 <PNK[m]> rip...
18:59:57 <Mochi101> rip failed
19:00:18 <PNK[m]> tfw
19:11:17 <ieatglueinthegul> Tfw failed in life lole
19:18:12 <jess> lole
19:21:59 <Mochi101> lole
19:34:40 <sgp_[m]1> any way I can be added with perms to be able to open PRs? https://github.com/monero-project/monero/compare/master...SamsungGalaxyPlayer:patch-2?expand=1
19:35:55 <Mochi101> You look like a bot sgp_[m]1
19:35:57 <Mochi101> :P
19:38:25 <sgp_[m]1> beep boop
19:47:02 <SerHack> that's what a bot would say
20:38:10 <rupee[m]> more censorship in surveillance coin land: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/marathon-digital-holdings-launch-first-200000064.html
20:40:57 <nioc> believes this infrastructure will help further decentralize Bitcoin
20:41:14 <nioc> oh
20:41:15 <nioc> ok
20:41:59 <apotheon> Holy shit.
20:42:04 <nioc> Bitcoin is now no different than any other strategic or rare earth commodity
20:42:09 <nioc> chyna bad
20:42:13 <nioc> murica good
20:42:17 <apotheon> I thought it was supposed to be KYC-compliant by ensuring only miners who provide all their info would be allowed.
20:42:39 <apotheon> . . . but it's supposedly only going to process transactions on the blockchain that are KYC-complaint.
20:42:44 <apotheon> s/complaint/compliant/
20:42:49 <apotheon> That's downright nutso.
20:43:41 <rupee[m]> their using DMG's tech (aka Blockseer), which has been doing this for a number of months, possibly still in beta.
20:43:51 <rupee[m]> s/their/they're
20:45:00 <rupee[m]> Now the regulators can start going around to other pools and saying, we know you can do this. DO THIS!
20:45:21 <apotheon> fucking hell
20:46:13 <moneromooo> DMG ? Oh my, it all makes sense now... It's just a massive anti privacy conspiracy then...
20:48:31 <moneromooo> So... if these people really are the ones trying to short monero into the ground *and* going full panopticon, then bitcoin people really have to try and short squeeze the bastards to win :D
20:48:54 <moneromooo> (if there are bitcoin people left)
20:49:05 <rupee[m]> i don't buy that people are short monero
20:49:32 <rupee[m]> from Oct: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dmg-subsidiary-blockseer-launches-bitcoin-130000157.html
20:49:36 <moneromooo> Could be exchange lying, true.
20:50:57 <rupee[m]> I mean, on bitfinex, there are more shorts than longs, which is unusual among the coins on bitfinex. But the total amount short isn't very much. And I think there is very little OTC lending going on.
21:09:19 <Tjomp> What is a good recommended pool to start mining at for a newbie with a single computer?
21:10:03 <hazardousbit[m]> i started with supportxmr
21:10:53 <Tjomp> Thanks. I will take a look at supportxmr
21:18:00 <moneromooo> Is that one of the two big ones ?
21:19:45 <moneromooo> It is. Better to use another then, to avoid compromising network health further.
21:20:46 <hazardousbit[m]> good point
21:22:36 <moneromooo> I think this is yet again a "do something about it" moment. I'll do something about it.
21:25:02 <xfjzmtbrurd> Will you HODL XMR or dump it for Tari when it comes out? Will others?
21:32:24 <donkeydonkey[m]> https://datamish.com/xmrusd/14d  according to this site looks xmr is the only coin of their listings that is more shorted than longed
21:36:23 <rupee[m]> yes, that's what I was referring to. It's just one exchange, and the total amount shorted isn't very much in the grand scheme of things.
21:37:12 <rupee[m]> I'd think I would hear more rumors about people looking for borrows if there were some big fish trying to short it in size.
21:38:23 <rupee[m]> of course I could be wrong, and certainly seems like most people hold the opposite view. I'd be really interested in any evidence other than bitfinex that there are large shorts in the market.
21:48:58 <rupee[m]> shouldn't the binance futures be trading at a discount to spot if someone was massively shorting XMR?
21:51:18 <u9000> hello
21:52:33 <u9000> my family has a small farm in new england, and they've decided to accept monero and btc
21:53:26 <rupee[m]> very cool
21:53:40 <u9000> i'm considering whether i should set them up to use the monero gui and all that, or if a payment gateway would be better
21:53:49 <u9000> do y'all have any advice?
21:54:32 <u9000> rupee[m]: yeah :-) i'm super excited about it
21:54:33 <apotheon> moneromooo: What will you do about it?
21:57:44 <apotheon> u9000: That depends on enough variables that I'm not sure how to answer it.
21:58:13 <apotheon> I'm not the expert, though, so maybe I wouldn't have the best advice anyway.
21:59:03 <u9000> what are some of the variables?
22:01:33 <apotheon> Do they have a direct use for XMR?  Are they likely to want to hold for potential value increase, treating it as savings, or should they just get it immediately turned into USD?  What kinds of transactions are they likely to make with XMR?  How comfortable are they with the technology?  Are they already using some payment gateway -- and, if so, is it something that would integrate well with a
22:01:39 <apotheon> gateway that supports XMR?  Are you going to do some of the work of regular handling of stuff for them?  Will you use some kind of automation for invoicing, or product labelling, or something like that -- and will there be some kind of special hardware for all that?
22:01:43 <apotheon> many, many variables
22:02:07 <apotheon> If you're including Monero and BTC, though, I might also consider BCH.
22:03:53 <u9000> that's useful insight
22:03:56 <u9000> thank you
22:04:25 <apotheon> sure
22:04:29 <apotheon> glad to help
22:04:48 <as2333> u9000, what kind of payment gateway? I'd personally accept payments directly.
22:05:09 <as2333> (whole point of p2p ecash I'd imagine)
22:05:31 <moneromooo> apotheon: a dumb "get me a random pool" URL, with weights inversely proportional to hash rate.
22:05:43 <moneromooo> You never know, it might work a bit.
22:05:50 <u9000> as2333: the kind where the end user doesn't have to deal with multiple coins
22:06:23 <u9000> i'd also accept payments directly, but i know what a wallet is
22:06:31 <apotheon> moneromooo: nice
22:06:44 <apotheon> presumably from a selected set
22:06:55 <moneromooo> Yes. No scraping. For now anyway.
22:07:33 <apotheon> Scraping might be . . . unwise?  It could result in directing people to shitty pools that nobody should join.
22:08:00 <apotheon> At least, I think so.
22:08:04 <apotheon> again, not the expert
22:08:20 <apotheon> moneromooo: Which are the "big two"?
22:08:35 <apotheon> Obviously, supportxmr and one more . . .
22:09:02 <rupee[m]> here's a list of pools: https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero
22:10:40 <nioc> minexmr has been #1 for a while now
22:10:57 <nioc> with around 1/3 the HR
22:11:13 <apotheon> gotcha
22:11:18 <apotheon> I see that on the chart.
22:11:20 <apotheon> rupee[m]: thanks
22:11:49 <nioc> my pool is in the 20s
22:12:41 <apotheon> Cryptonote?
22:12:57 * apotheon guesses.
22:14:21 <nioc> well not "my" pool
22:14:40 <donkeydonkey[m]> <moneromooo "apotheon: a dumb "get me a rando"> cool. how do you tell the hashrates of the various minepools?
22:15:06 <apotheon> apparently that chart rupee[m] shared
22:15:09 <apotheon> https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero
22:15:21 <nioc> it's live and up to date
22:16:10 <nioc> I mine on pool.xmr.pt   they have been around long time and are commited to monero
22:18:37 <nioc> originally set up for the Portuguese community but luckily they accept dumb muricans like me
22:19:01 <apotheon> nioc: sweet
22:25:50 <moneromooo> https://townforge.net/choose_pool.html
22:26:17 <moneromooo> I took the data off https://revuo-monero.com/issue-96.html, doens't matter if it's really accurate.
22:26:33 <moneromooo> Now, maybe suggesting really small pools is not so great, I'm not sure.
22:27:09 <apotheon> middling pools, perhaps
22:27:09 <moneromooo> Anyway, feel free to link there when someone asks next.
22:27:20 <apotheon> size bell curve for randomization weighting
22:27:43 <apotheon> moneromooo: Maybe you can get that into the topic of #monero-pools.
22:28:46 <moneromooo> I'll leave that to those people's discretion.
22:32:20 <nioc> moneromooo: well minergate and viabtc are on that revuo link of yours so no I would not go with that info
22:33:20 <nioc> link = revuo
22:33:34 <moneromooo> viabtc is a scam one ? I omitted minergate already.
22:33:59 <apotheon> hmm, requires client-side scripting
22:34:12 <moneromooo> Most do AFAIK.
22:34:18 <apotheon> le sad
22:34:34 <moneromooo> Oh, my page ? Yes.
22:34:43 <nioc> I am unsure / unclear about via
22:34:47 <moneromooo> Otherwise it'd be PHP and ain't nobody got time for PHP...
22:34:54 <moneromooo> But feel free to make one that does it :D
22:35:21 <apotheon> What about a simple C program via CGI?
22:35:29 <moneromooo> Oh yes!
22:35:42 <moneromooo> Damn. 20 year flashback :D
22:35:45 <apotheon> I'd rather write that than a PHP thing.
22:36:28 <apotheon> When you write object oriented PHP, you get PHP Object Oriented Hypertext Preprocessor, or POOHP.
23:02:54 <moneromooo> lol, I called it choose_pool.bat for kicks and owasp rules block it :D
23:03:15 <apotheon> oy
23:03:28 <apotheon> moneromooo: What about SSI?
23:06:25 <moneromooo> https://townforge.net/cgi-bin/choose_pool
23:06:30 <moneromooo> I have no clue what SSI means.
23:06:49 <louipc> single sign in?
23:06:50 <moneromooo> Thanks, much better without JS requirement :)
23:07:06 <moneromooo> Secret Service Intruder ?
23:08:07 <louipc> Schutzstaffelinspektor
23:08:24 <moneromooo> Now that sounds like something I don't want in my future...
23:08:36 <louipc> 2l8t
23:08:56 <louipc> dang redundant t