00:00:38 <rupee[m]> .xmr
00:00:39 <Wallet> rupee[m]: ≈$258.3131 • ≈ value of: 1 XMR • Source: cmc/ccc/altm
00:32:58 <Bill48105> kek there's the reason: [17:05:35] <Wallet> ALERT! Locked account access attempt: rottenwheel@freenode
00:33:43 <rottenwheel> Bill48105 you have rottenwheel banned? Figures. lol.
00:34:00 <Bill48105> yeah that's what i said.. pfft
00:34:07 <rottenwheel> mmxxx doesn't have anything to do with that. was just saying it works in the dogecoin room, with doge. but it doesn't on here.
00:34:20 <Bill48105> you are obviously using a different account
00:34:21 <rottenwheel> not that he hasn't been banned before.
00:34:25 * rottenwheel shrugs
00:34:41 <Bill48105> not sure what your attitude is about but keep it up & you can remain locked
00:34:57 <rottenwheel> rotten on freenode, which i haven't been for more than 2-3 weeks. rottenwheel on matrix. registered wheel on freenode a week or so ago.
00:35:11 <rottenwheel> i think you just don't connect the dots and see it's the same ole rotten, old man.
00:35:23 <Bill48105> as i said earlier there's multiple reasons accounts get locked. if you re-use a previously used account on freenode it'll be locked
00:35:28 <rottenwheel> i don't care either. keep it locked. :*
00:35:46 <Bill48105> you know how many asshole trolls I deal with on a daily basis? no time to sort one rotten from another
00:35:59 <rottenwheel> lol.
00:36:12 <rottenwheel> you never change, i never change. business as usual. cc. mmxxx
00:36:48 <Bill48105> if you need further help discuss it in one of the bot channels. no sense blowing this channel up with nonsense
01:13:22 <apotheon> rupee[m]: Thanks for your generosity to the #monero community.
01:57:06 <strike> .faucet
01:57:07 <Wallet> strike: Of ​7 & 3, which is 7
01:57:09 <strike> 1
01:57:10 <Wallet> strike: Oops that is not correct. Try again later.
01:57:12 <strike> .faucet
01:57:23 <strike> .faucet
01:57:25 <Wallet> strike: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000023 XMR to strike [3a4d3b4b] Wait ≈23 hrs 57 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01233975
06:35:39 <lvxtmskvsqy> What kind of person steals from own community? np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6d5yt5/_/ Your own leaders are laughing at how stupid you are for falling for thier 'Magical Crypto Friendship'
06:39:59 <Bill48105> never gets old..
07:24:43 <JaakkoLuttinen[m> If I set username and password for RPC on my monerod server, are those credentials sent in the clear in plain text when my wallet connects to that server? At least I can't see any certificate-based encryption.
07:31:11 <JaakkoLuttinen[m> Ah, never mind, there's `--rpc-ssl-*` options
08:12:39 <grc001[m]> Hey folks, im trying to use trezor suite to exchange btc to xmr, but when i paste the xmr address in receiving address it says "Receiving address is invalid". Anyone getting/gotten this problem before?
08:17:57 <grc001[m]> The xmr address is correct.
08:18:17 <grc001[m]> pasted from gui and into trezor suite
08:19:03 <grc001[m]> checked address on trezor in gui. not sure
10:08:05 <ferox_thinkpad> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnKrMKo_WlU
10:47:05 <melona> hello
10:49:24 <moneromooo> hi
10:50:10 <melona> after merge mining code added now tx is not acceptable
10:50:21 <melona> i think that is a byte size issue
10:50:36 <melona> i added 35bytes but still error
10:50:55 <melona> before everything was ok
10:51:22 <moneromooo> You mean the add_aux_pow patch ?
10:51:34 <melona> yes
10:51:59 <moneromooo> You merged it manually, or pulled the new monero code (it's merged now).
10:52:22 <melona> just git recursive
10:52:36 <moneromooo> Did you make any other changes ?
10:52:56 <melona> no
10:53:08 <moneromooo> What is the error message you're getting ?
10:53:33 <melona> on this file cryptonote_format_utils.cpp u have added tx extra right
10:54:41 <melona> if i change it with zero 0x00 is ok?
10:55:01 <moneromooo> You should not need to change the code, it's supposed to work.
10:55:12 <moneromooo> What is the error message you're getting ?
10:56:28 <melona> "Failed to parse transaction from blob"
10:57:51 <moneromooo> Is the tx in the monero chain ?
10:58:53 <melona> no new chain
11:00:21 <moneromooo> Print it as hex (print_block is monerod), then run: monero-utils-deserialize --input FOO
11:00:28 <moneromooo> Replace FOO with the hex you got
11:00:50 <moneromooo> Give the the right path for the binary (eg, build/release/bin etc)
11:01:03 <moneromooo> You must have built monero with debug, or release with debug utils enabled.
11:01:22 <moneromooo> Do this with both the old monero tree and the new one. See if one or both fails to parse.
11:01:55 <moneromooo> Sorry, print_tx TXID +hex, not blcok.
11:02:16 <moneromooo> Or just paste the tx hex on paste.debian.net so I can have a look.
11:07:50 <melona> ok
11:10:17 <melona> i didnt explain that first block is not starting so print_block has no meaning because monero dont accept 1block because of merge mining
11:10:52 <melona> we are talking about new chain from the start
11:12:05 <moneromooo> You're claiming the tx is accepted without the add_aux_pow patch, but not with the patch, right ? If so, just paste the tx as hex, wherever it comes from.
11:12:51 <melona> for pasting the tx i need to remove all patch
11:13:02 <moneromooo> Sure.
11:31:10 <dEBRUYNE> grc001[m]: Are you using a subaddress (8) or the primary address (4)
11:31:11 <dEBRUYNE> ?
12:53:05 <nioc> does trezor suite supports xmr?
13:07:48 <selsta> no
13:41:04 <JaakkoLuttinen[m> monerod is complaining `--rpc-bind-ip permits inbound unencrypted external connections. Consider SSH tunnel or SSL proxy instead. Override with --confirm-external-bind`. Why does it say that it would permit unencrypted connections when I have `rpc-ssl=enabled` also set?? I want to allow external connections, but only encrypted external connections.. What should I do?
13:53:00 <moneromooo> --rpc-ssl enabled seems right. Can you post your entire comand lime ?
13:55:59 <moneromooo> Nevermind, the "unencrypted" wording seems old, and was not updated after RPC SSL got added.
13:56:34 <moneromooo> I'll fix it, in the meantime it's just telling you "this is listening to other machines, please confirm".
13:59:13 <moneromooo> vtnerd: I'm not actually sure what's a good wording. Should we still suggest "SSH tunnel or SSL proxy" now that monerod can force SSL ?
13:59:47 <JaakkoLuttinen[m> moneromooo: Great, thanks! 👍️
14:15:02 <gingeropolous> i need to learn fuckin python
14:15:08 <gingeropolous> the fact that this is taking so long in bash is sad
14:18:33 <AmbiguousYelp[m]> Would be cool if there was a POS system with ring signatures, have you seen how little energy nano uses compared to bitcoinm
14:25:59 <nselhrjtssqq> Dear fireice_uk. I must strongly object to you reporting our great Monro community members to Freenode for racism AND getting people K-lined as a result! i.imgur.com/R0T9GGY.png THEY ARE NOT NEO-NAZI!!! THEY ARE JUST SAYING NEO-NAZI THINGS!! i.imgur.com/JYu44As.png I know this because they have been nice to me and made me their Magical Crypto Friend! If you don't cease immediately I shall throw another tantrum!
14:26:00 <nselhrjtssqq> Monero Community Member PS. You are interrupting my session of masturbation to The Man in the High Castle.
14:26:02 <vtnerd> um
14:26:31 <vtnerd> I guess mention SSH tunne and SSL mode
14:27:05 <vtnerd> SSL proxy still may be useful if someone has exotic config, but anyone attempting that likely knows about SSL proxying
14:27:29 <vtnerd> SSH mode is interesting for people who already have two way auth setup
14:27:41 <vtnerd> no need to do any extra work with SSL certs
14:31:36 <gingeropolous> goddamnit my array split the stirng into 2 variables on the array
14:31:38 <gingeropolous> sonofsodsindsfdsf
14:55:57 <gingeropolous> well here's my ugly as hell bash script to mitigate this ddos in case any public remote node folks need it: https://termbin.com/qn8h
14:56:29 <gingeropolous> makes the attack more expensive because attacker can only make n connections per ip
14:57:23 <gingeropolous> lza_menace, ^
14:57:27 <gingeropolous> sethsimmons, ^
14:57:32 <gingeropolous> forget who else
14:57:38 <gingeropolous> i forget who else, i mean
14:58:24 <gingeropolous> reqires this set up: <gingeropolous> then followed this: https://linux-audit.com/blocking-ip-addresses-in-linux-with-iptables/
15:16:24 <JaakkoLuttinen[m> When a wallet connects to a node that uses SSL, how does the wallet verify the certificate? Does it accept it automatically if it's CA verified? Or does it accept every time no matter what? Can I somehow see if the connection is SSL encrypted and what is the used certificate?
15:16:54 <JaakkoLuttinen[m> (In my node, I'm using nginx as a reverse proxy, so the node itself isn't using SSL, just nginx in front of it. Not sure if it's a good idea, but this way I was able to very easily set up Let's Encrypt automatic certificates.)
15:29:03 <dryafloat[m]> Any1 think crypto is starting to become more mainstream now? As ppl are more aware of it now than before?
15:31:30 <charolastra> dunno, for me it doesn't feel close to 2017 levels
15:38:39 <moneromooo> It uses a whitelist, unless you tell it to accept any random CA.
15:40:10 <dryafloat[m]> <charolastra "dunno, for me it doesn't feel cl"> What happened in 2017?
15:40:41 <charolastra> was the past peak. everyone and their mother sold their houses to buy coins
15:48:29 <JaakkoLuttinen[m> moneromooo: Ok, I can't find any related options in the GUI. It just connected without asking anything to a node that has a self-signed certificate and supports SSL only..
15:49:52 <moneromooo> Maybe the whitelist thing got removed then...
15:51:17 <dryafloat[m]> <charolastra "was the past peak. everyone and "> Damn, 2017 must've been a   wild ride for many
15:53:15 <moneromooo> vtnerd: did you remove the whitelist default ? Kinda rings a bell. I see no obvious mention of this in git logs.
15:54:42 <moneromooo> Oh wow. I did not add SSL. I could have sworn I had. My memory's going to shit :S
15:58:56 <ieatglueinthegul> <dryafloat[m] "Any1 think crypto is starting to"> I can't wait for BTC to crash and wipe out all the other garbagecoins from the market with it
16:08:28 <leonardus> ieatglueinthegul: while we're at it, can the entire NFT market please go away too
16:12:07 <ieatglueinthegul> It absolutely will imo
16:16:40 <louipc> never
16:16:58 <dryafloat[m]> <leonardus "ieatglueinthegulag: while we're "> Imo highly unlikely, given how much money is being spent on it. It is absurd, it truly is. But there is a market and ppl are invested heavily on it
16:23:44 <boogerlad> I've seen some discussions on github about removing support for integrated addresses and the "tx_extra" field late 2021. However, the discussions are fragmented amongst multiple threads and there was no clear consensus from what I could tell. What's the latest status?
17:14:22 <apotheon> leonardus: There could be useful purposes for non-fungible tokens, but what I'm seeing mostly seems to be intellectual flatulence turned into weird get-rich-quick schemes to fleece the credulous.
17:16:39 <apotheon> leonardus: I did see something about using NFT technology to automate the establishment of Delaware LLCs, which looks like it could be promising.  I haven't looked into it enough yet, or thought about it enough, to figure out for sure whether this seems like a good idea with a good execution behind it, but the notion is a lot more interesting than trying to treat a digital image file stored in a
17:16:46 <apotheon> blockchain like a valuable object unique within the whole world even when there are non-NFT duplicates of it.
17:21:19 <apotheon> leonardus: My sense of where NFTs could become useful is in three cases: one is authentication of something (e.g. a way to establish authorship, perhaps); one is a way to establish a canonical record of something tangibly unique (e.g. title to a piece of real estate); and one is establishing a mechanism of control for something programmatically unique (e.g. title to some rivalrous thing within
17:21:25 <apotheon> the limited case of a closed digital system like an object in a shared virtual world or identification by unique label within a self-enforcing registry).
17:23:01 <apotheon> leonardus: Most of the hype I see is around crap like trying to reinvent DRM somehow, which is absurd because all you have to do to circumvent that is to make a copy of the thing outside the current NFT-referenced context.
17:24:18 <apotheon> dryafloat[m]: I think the "market" for this NFT stuff is akin to pogs or beanie babies -- but worse, because once you take one of these digital beanie babies outside its blockchain context it ceases to be a non-fungible thing.
17:24:23 <lord_fomo[m]> lel nfts finally poppin eh
17:24:55 <lord_fomo[m]> aren't nfts only useful in the use cases where you need a trustless blockchain (yet again)
17:25:15 <lord_fomo[m]> the artist could just have a private db with a signed key in it
17:25:21 <lord_fomo[m]> they don't need a blockchain
17:25:43 <apotheon> Yeah, that's the basic reason for why I came to the conclusions I indicated in that wall of text of mine above.
17:26:28 <lord_fomo[m]> most of everything people are talking about frankly doesn't need a blockchain
17:26:51 <lord_fomo[m]> it's just that they're all so under educated in why a blockchain is useful that we get this fluff
17:26:58 <apotheon> Without a need for a trustless single-point-of-truth for something, and without substantive historical value to the identification of a record, it all seems to be just silly games.
17:27:46 <lord_fomo[m]> yup
17:27:53 <apotheon> Even the idea of real estate titles on the blockchain only works with the addition of meatspace enforcement which, in turn, depends on a lot of cultural buy-in.
17:27:56 <lord_fomo[m]> was just trying to explain this to a banking friend
17:28:29 <lord_fomo[m]> yah you basically need a heard to agree on the value dictated by the ledger
17:28:30 <apotheon> The real estate cases is by far the weakest example I offered, and it could only really work in the world as it is now if a government just decides that's how it should start storing title data.
17:28:37 <lord_fomo[m]>  * yah you basically need a herd to agree on the value dictated by the ledger
17:28:44 <moneromooo> The idea of real estate titles without a blockchain also only works with the addition of meatspace enforcement.
17:28:45 <apotheon> s/cases/case/
17:29:06 <lord_fomo[m]> you only need the RE thing though if you have trustless entities trading the deeds
17:29:09 <apotheon> moneromooo: exactly why the real estate title *could* work
17:29:16 <lord_fomo[m]> which usually isn't the case because the state has their hands in it for taxes
17:29:27 <apotheon> My point is that the blockchain solution itself isn't sufficient.
17:29:31 <lord_fomo[m]> so the blockchain ends up mostly useless yet again since the state has to keep centralized tabs
17:29:40 <apotheon> . . . any more than the county records solution itself isn't sufficient.
17:29:43 <lord_fomo[m]> and at that point you might as well "serialize" trust to them
17:30:07 <apotheon> leonardus: I think trustless entities trading deeds is something a lot of people might want.
17:30:15 <apotheon> (I don't, however, necessarily think it's a good idea.)
17:30:16 <moneromooo> It could refer to the state of the chain to know who to beat up :)
17:30:27 <lord_fomo[m]> lol
17:30:36 <lord_fomo[m]> except the state doesn't want you getting all that transparency
17:30:39 <lord_fomo[m]> part of the problem of power
17:30:48 <lord_fomo[m]> you can't have corrupt power and transparency
17:31:28 <lord_fomo[m]> ok so who knows the deats about cake wallet?
17:31:36 <lord_fomo[m]> how actual non-KYC is it?
17:31:38 <apotheon> Having trustless deed exchanges paired with blockchain title records would actually make real estate taxes easier to assess and enforce, and would also make it easier in principle for people to figure out who owns a piece of land, I suppose.
17:31:45 <lord_fomo[m]> i'm seeing this wyre 3rd party shit
17:32:03 <lord_fomo[m]> > Having trustless deed exchanges paired with blockchain title records would actually make real estate taxes easier to assess and enforce, and would also make it easier in principle for people to figure out who owns a piece of land, I suppose.
17:32:12 <apotheon> Oh, I see what moneromooo said was much more succinct than my explanation of the same idea.
17:32:14 <lord_fomo[m]> right but none of these can't be solved by centralized public dbs
17:32:29 <lord_fomo[m]> you don't actually need a blockchain for this
17:32:45 <apotheon> leonardus: What is "wyre"?
17:32:47 <lord_fomo[m]> if the govmt stamps each transaction then why do you need an algo to
17:32:58 <leonardus> apotheon: I don't know, I never mentioned that
17:33:11 <apotheon> leonardus: sorry
17:33:14 <apotheon> I meant lord_fomo[m]
17:33:14 <apotheon> .
17:33:43 <lord_fomo[m]> i dunno
17:33:49 <lord_fomo[m]> it's listed under the wallet deats
17:33:50 <apotheon> Shit.  I replied to lord_fomo[m] using leonardus' name more than once.  I apologize for that.
17:33:56 <lord_fomo[m]> no worries
17:34:24 <lord_fomo[m]> i mean they have to do the fiat swap somehow
17:34:37 <lord_fomo[m]> so i'm guessing they use this wyre service to do that
17:34:46 <lord_fomo[m]> then issue you units of btc / xmr
17:34:55 <apotheon> Oh, is "wyre" the name of some kind of service allegorical to a "wire service"?
17:34:58 <lord_fomo[m]> also interesting they just delegate to electrum for btc underneath
17:35:03 <lord_fomo[m]> i dunno
17:35:06 <lord_fomo[m]> that's why i'm asking
17:35:11 <lord_fomo[m]> someone in here said that cake was decent
17:35:11 <apotheon> hmm
17:35:28 <lord_fomo[m]> https://www.sendwyre.com/
17:35:36 <apotheon> I hear it's a good wallet.  I have no idea what people generally think of its functionality as an exchange mechanism.
17:36:14 <lord_fomo[m]> i'm just wondering is there literally any benefit over a big exchange
17:36:22 <lord_fomo[m]> or is it just mobile for tinas
17:36:55 <lord_fomo[m]> also, no one has answered my question re KYC and trying to convert fiat -> xmr somewhat anon
17:37:04 <lord_fomo[m]> if you convert on a big exchange
17:37:07 <lord_fomo[m]> then go into xmr
17:37:22 <lord_fomo[m]> then use 2 wallets those funds are now untraceable yes?
17:37:34 <lord_fomo[m]> the first is obviously tied to whatever KYC account
17:38:08 <lord_fomo[m]> and on another note
17:38:13 <lord_fomo[m]> wtf is turtle coin
17:38:39 <gingeropolous> dude its turtles on a blockchain
17:39:08 <apotheon> I think, in theory, moving funds around in XMR between different addresses should break their traceability.
17:39:24 <apotheon> I'm no expert, though.
17:40:25 <lord_fomo[m]> apotheon: yeah the theory says to me it's pretty straight forward
17:40:37 <lord_fomo[m]> but waiting for someone to challenge that thot
17:41:00 <lord_fomo[m]> i mean you can easily have multiple exchange accounts with different emails which require no KYC
17:41:48 <lord_fomo[m]> so if you're a trader looking to avoid taxes (presuming profitability) i don't know why this wouldn't already be largely prevalent practice for tax evasion
17:41:54 <lord_fomo[m]>  * so if you're a trader looking to avoid taxes (presuming profitability) i don't know why this wouldn't already be largely prevalent practice for evasion
17:42:47 <lord_fomo[m]> if you were operating in the islands i would assume rolling your own bisq type thing would be massively in demandf
17:42:49 <lord_fomo[m]>  * if you were operating in the islands i would assume rolling your own bisq type thing would be massively in demand
17:43:38 <lord_fomo[m]> > dude its turtles on a blockchain
17:43:38 <lord_fomo[m]> they seem to cred xmr for contribs?
17:43:45 <lord_fomo[m]> https://github.com/turtlecoin/turtlecoin#contributing-projects
17:44:04 <lord_fomo[m]> also looks like some basis in the cryptonote design
17:45:39 <lord_fomo[m]> seems cute, anyway
17:45:40 <apotheon> I suspect many people don't want to avoid taxes -- just minimize them -- because of the perceived dangers of tax evasion, primarily.
17:45:54 <lord_fomo[m]> heh tell that to amazon
17:46:18 <apotheon> Oh, I mean capital gains taxes, not sales tax.
17:48:30 <apotheon> Amazon is probably just trying to figure out what it can get away with ignoring because having to deal with sales tax at Amazon's level is a gigantic pain well beyond the realm of reasonability.
17:48:34 <moneromooo> I think one of the things that people don't really see about monero is that even if governments end up having total visibility on it (ie, they blanket require all view keys), it still means corps/neighbours/assholes at work can't spy on you (until those leak).
17:49:10 <apotheon> Yeah, well, "until those leak" is really just trying to put off the inevitable.
17:49:25 <moneromooo> That's still a step up for bitcoin, even in the sauron scenario.
17:49:48 <apotheon> Saying that government somehow requires all view keys definitely doesn't imply it acquires them, though.
17:50:04 <apotheon> "sauron scenario"
17:50:05 <apotheon> nice
17:50:47 <apotheon> Unless I'm missing something, demanding them doesn't mean there's any way to universally enforce it.
17:52:04 <apotheon> Just as some universal ban on the production of gunpowder doesn't make it impossible for people to scrape up the raw materials and make some old-school smokepowder in their garages, demanding all the view keys doesn't magically make it impossible for people to have unsurrendered view keys.
17:53:12 <apotheon> "smokepowder" meaning black powder of the sort produced before the development of "smokeless" gunpowder
17:59:59 <lord_fomo[m]> am i not showing on irc again?
18:00:48 <selsta> you are
18:00:53 <lord_fomo[m]> kk tx
18:01:25 <lord_fomo[m]> > just minimize them -- because of the perceived dangers of tax evasion,
18:01:25 <lord_fomo[m]> apotheon right i just meant amzn got this one backwards
18:01:57 <lord_fomo[m]> all the -ve perception they took on full armed
18:02:52 <ieatglueinthegul> <apotheon "Saying that government somehow r"> Quite an important point
18:02:57 <lord_fomo[m]> > I think one of the things that people don't really see about monero is that even if governments end up having total visibility on it (ie, they blanket require all view keys),
18:03:05 <lord_fomo[m]> yeah how the hell could you enforce this
18:03:09 <lord_fomo[m]> "what keys sir"
18:03:26 <ieatglueinthegul> Piracy has been illegal since the beginning of the internet and it's not like they've managed to actually enforce that
18:03:27 <lord_fomo[m]>  * "what keys sir (cough ghestapo jones)"
18:03:41 <lord_fomo[m]>  * "what keys sir (cough gestapo jones)"
18:04:09 <apotheon> ieatglueinthegul: Copyright is fundamentally unenforceable.  It's an attempt to use force of arms to get everyone to agree that a non-scarce thing is scarce.
18:04:10 <ieatglueinthegul> Once it's all out there it's just all chaos theory
18:04:24 <lord_fomo[m]> it's presuming some massive increase in government competancy
18:04:48 <lord_fomo[m]> which is pretty unlikely
18:04:51 <apotheon> ieatglueinthegul: It's akin to when . . . I think it was Mordorchusetts . . . passed a law stating that pi was the integer 3.
18:04:54 <ieatglueinthegul> Such a ban can be enforced preemptively with a lot of violence in an outright dictatorship such as North Korea
18:05:02 <apotheon> Maybe it was some other New England -ish place.
18:05:07 <lord_fomo[m]> even then
18:05:14 <lord_fomo[m]> you can't rip keys out of peoples heads
18:05:17 <lord_fomo[m]> (at least not yet)
18:06:06 <apotheon> 18:04 < lord_fomo[m]> it's presuming some massive increase in government competancy
18:06:10 <apotheon> I like the way you phrased that.
18:06:19 <lord_fomo[m]> heh
18:06:37 <lord_fomo[m]> i mean governments are mostly a joke
18:06:51 <apotheon> Enforcement is almost random, in practice.
18:07:08 <lord_fomo[m]> it's the peeps pulling the strings behind them that are worth keeping a strategy on hand
18:07:11 <apotheon> That's part of the terrifying nature of considering violation of such laws, though.
18:07:33 <apotheon> In a way, if enforcement cannot be perfect, making it random is more effective for maintaining control.
18:07:51 <apotheon> (just see how cult indoctrination and abusive relationships work to understand that point)
18:07:58 <lord_fomo[m]> i mean they're basically violating laws wholesale right now
18:08:01 <lord_fomo[m]> re: privacy
18:09:02 <apotheon> To the extent that enforcement of any law is not random, it's mostly because of targeting people the enforcers and their masters particularly dislike, I think.
18:10:58 <ferox_thinkpad> https://youtu.be/FnKrMKo_WlU
18:12:45 <lord_fomo[m]> ya'll hear about the fb leak
18:12:47 <lord_fomo[m]> lmao
18:12:49 <lord_fomo[m]> tell the tinas
18:12:56 <lord_fomo[m]> their data isn't safe again
18:13:57 <Mochi101> Tinas?
18:15:59 <moneromooo> "Insulting word for people not like me"
18:17:38 <lord_fomo[m]> naw
18:17:42 <lord_fomo[m]> it's from thatcher
18:17:52 <lord_fomo[m]> repurposed by retail traders
18:18:03 <hyc> I suppose better than Talkie Tina from Twilight Zone
18:18:06 <lord_fomo[m]> basically synon with closed minded naivety
18:18:28 <lord_fomo[m]> everyone's a tina
18:18:31 <lord_fomo[m]> in some way
18:18:41 <lord_fomo[m]> > "Insulting word for people not like me"
18:18:46 <lord_fomo[m]> so this is strictly incorrect
18:19:05 <lord_fomo[m]> like i'm a big literary tina
18:19:09 <lord_fomo[m]> and cryptography tina
18:19:53 <lord_fomo[m]> but tech tinas generally use things like fb and "texting"
18:19:57 <lord_fomo[m]> many of them are boomers
18:21:22 <pixelized[m]> hey, perhaps this is an oversight on my part
18:21:45 <pixelized[m]> but as far as i know it's not possible to reveal the identity of the sender of a transaction to the recipient
18:22:09 <pixelized[m]> i.e. if i send .02 XMR to a friend, i cannot include any metadata like 'gift from pixelized'
18:22:38 <pixelized[m]> that seems like a huge obstacle to adoption of a coin like monero by the general public
18:22:47 <pixelized[m]> absolutely massive
18:22:52 <moneromooo> It's hard to add free text, though possible technically. Would ve nice to get every tx to get, say, 200 bytes of encrypted data so you could do that.
18:23:19 <lord_fomo[m]> pixelized: why does it have to be in channel?
18:23:33 <pixelized[m]> and i wonder if it would really be that difficult to include some free space in each transaction? obviously if that were publicly readable that would be a risk to privacy
18:23:40 <pixelized[m]> but encrypt it using the one-time pubkey of the receiver
18:23:48 <pixelized[m]> and i reckon that wouldn't be an issue anymore
18:23:55 <lord_fomo[m]> there are already e2ee comms platforms
18:24:00 <lord_fomo[m]> why does it need to be in channel
18:24:31 <lord_fomo[m]> i think that you're actually after is xmr integration into a e2ee chat platform
18:24:37 <pixelized[m]> no
18:24:42 <lord_fomo[m]> not the other way around
18:24:47 <pixelized[m]> you wouldn't use monero for general-purpose communication, but let's say you're a business using monero
18:24:52 <pixelized[m]> if you want to refund one of your customers
18:24:56 <pixelized[m]> some money
18:24:59 <lord_fomo[m]> right so you send them an email
18:25:04 <pixelized[m]> because a product price changed or because they paid to much
18:25:11 <pixelized[m]> they can't know the extra money they received came from you
18:25:14 <lord_fomo[m]> just like how banks do test deposits before linking interbank accounts
18:25:17 <pixelized[m]> and that's an issue
18:25:34 <lord_fomo[m]> not sure why you need text inside the protocol
18:25:42 <lord_fomo[m]> doesn't make sense design wise
18:25:42 <moneromooo> Oh, that's because you're missing some context.
18:25:48 <pixelized[m]> or, another use case, you've been to a restaurant with some friends, you paid and you want them all to pay you back
18:26:02 <pixelized[m]> you'd like to know which transaction came from which of your friends then
18:26:03 <pixelized[m]> but you can't
18:26:05 <moneromooo> Every client/counterparty is allocated a separate address, to which the business attaches whatever metadata they use.
18:26:40 <moneromooo> ie, Alice tells Bob, send monero to this address. Then Alice knows it came from Bob, because only Bob has that address.
18:26:43 <lord_fomo[m]> i don't see why you can't sign some meta + an amount
18:26:47 <lord_fomo[m]>  * i don't see why you can't sign some metadata + an amount
18:26:52 <lord_fomo[m]> on some other system
18:27:37 <apotheon> How is it not okay to send an email, like a business would when informing a customer of a refund via credit card balance reimbursement?
18:27:51 <pixelized[m]> <moneromooo "ie, Alice tells Bob, send monero"> that's fair in some cases, but in the restaurant case you'd have to make a separate address for every single person you're with
18:27:59 <pixelized[m]> which is fine if you already use separate addresses for every single person you could possibly transact with
18:28:13 <moneromooo> Yes.
18:28:13 <pixelized[m]> but that's not the sort of thing most people want to be concerned with
18:28:36 <lord_fomo[m]> "most tinas"
18:29:03 <pixelized[m]> i've talked to some relatively normal people about monero and anytime this has come up they've flagged it as a serious issue that would prevent them from wanting to use monero
18:29:19 <pixelized[m]> 'what, i can't tell the recipient that it's a gift without writing them a bloody email?'
18:29:29 <lord_fomo[m]> but did you offer a solution
18:29:33 <pixelized[m]> yes
18:29:47 <lord_fomo[m]> it's an odd world where email is somehow now a hassle
18:29:49 <apotheon> How do you tell them it's a gift with USD, exactly?
18:30:03 <lord_fomo[m]> do people hire coders any more or just use excel to do everything still
18:30:08 <apotheon> If it's just between individuals, SMS is fine, too.
18:30:13 <pixelized[m]> i don't know about USD, but at least where i live you can include a description with every bank transaction
18:30:25 <pixelized[m]> and that's common to do as well
18:30:35 <lord_fomo[m]> sounds like EU
18:30:39 <lord_fomo[m]> SEPA
18:30:42 <lord_fomo[m]> er wtv
18:30:42 <apotheon> Sure, but the bank transaction *itself* between individuals is a bigger hassle than Monero+SMS.
18:30:56 <lord_fomo[m]> lmao sms
18:31:10 <lord_fomo[m]> there's a good way to stay transparent
18:31:18 <apotheon> or Monero+Signal, or Monero+whatever
18:31:29 <apotheon> lord_fomo[m]: Yes, it is, but let's address one issue at a time.
18:31:34 <lord_fomo[m]> yeah i'm pretty sure that bank system's "message" is a bunch of complex bs
18:31:53 <pixelized[m]> also not really, if you want to send money to someone you log into your bank (or you open the app if you're a phone kind of person), click 'send money', type the name of the contact you want to send it to, the amount
18:31:53 <lord_fomo[m]> and if you were going to implement it with xmr + some other thing you could do it with less headache
18:31:55 <pixelized[m]> and click send
18:31:57 <apotheon> When someone refuses Monero adoption because *bank transactions* come with a comment field, these people clearly aren't thinking about the privacy angle yet.
18:32:06 <pixelized[m]> it's about as convenient as with monero
18:32:12 <lord_fomo[m]> it's a pure tina thought
18:32:13 <pixelized[m]> except there's also an option to include a description
18:32:29 <lord_fomo[m]> convenience and security are literally at odds
18:32:34 <lord_fomo[m]> like fundamentally
18:32:42 <pixelized[m]> <apotheon "When someone refuses Monero adop"> no they obviously aren't, and it's not an issue to people who are invested in privacy and whatnot
18:32:57 <pixelized[m]> but i'm saying i believe it's an obstacle to widespread adoption outside of that sort of community
18:33:19 <pixelized[m]> <lord_fomo[m] "convenience and security are lit"> often, but not always
18:33:24 <apotheon> I only mentioned the privacy thing in response to lord_fomo[m] complaining about SMS.  Obviously, there are more private equivalents to SMS.
18:33:27 <pixelized[m]> in this case they're at odds because this is not a feature of monero
18:33:34 <lord_fomo[m]> you aren't going to get adoption until there's a massive cultural shift to proper valuation of privacy
18:33:37 <apotheon> pixelized[m]: My point to *you* was "just send a text message".
18:33:42 <pixelized[m]> but it could be, without (unless i'm blind) any ramifications for privacy
18:33:46 <lord_fomo[m]> then the tradeoff equation gets reweighted
18:33:50 <apotheon> Logging into a bank website to send stuff is still more work than that.
18:33:55 <lord_fomo[m]> and the tinas realize they are hooked to puppet strings
18:34:21 <apotheon> lord_fomo[m]: I don't think just dismissing everything "because tinas" is helping anything.
18:34:26 <lord_fomo[m]> <pixelized[m] "often, but not always"> no, always
18:34:30 * tina agrees
18:34:39 <lord_fomo[m]> 🥰
18:34:48 <Guest63698> Damn. Taken.
18:35:02 <lord_fomo[m]> you can't have more security and more convenience
18:35:20 <lord_fomo[m]> ever encrypted your hdd?
18:35:28 <lord_fomo[m]> come back and tell us all about how fun it was
18:35:30 <hyperkitty> With my own self-made magnets.
18:35:32 <pixelized[m]> no, but for any level of security there's a spectrum of convenience
18:35:44 <pixelized[m]> and you can move from the low end to the high end without it being a detriment to security
18:35:46 <louipc> depends on how bad current security and convenience is
18:36:01 <lord_fomo[m]> > and you can move from the low end to the high end without it being a detriment to security
18:36:01 <lord_fomo[m]> sure
18:36:07 <lord_fomo[m]> but use some metrics
18:36:07 <apotheon> I'm curious about what kinds of "friends" send each other gifts but don't talk often enough to say "Hey, I sent you $foo XMR.  Happy birthday!"
18:36:28 <lord_fomo[m]> having a "message" presented through some UI in some way can be accomplished so many ways
18:36:32 <louipc> encryption on phone is basically painless
18:36:37 <lord_fomo[m]> you don't need to mix up your sw design concerns to do it
18:36:50 <louipc> if it was part of default install process, might not be as bad
18:36:59 <lord_fomo[m]> perfect example SMS, MMS
18:37:04 <lord_fomo[m]> you want to talk about bad design
18:37:06 <pixelized[m]> <apotheon "I'm curious about what kinds of "> it requires people to think - which is an issue if you're aiming for widespread adoption
18:37:15 <lord_fomo[m]> let's toss text into the real-time audio system
18:37:17 <pixelized[m]> namely 'oh which of these transactions could have come from this person'
18:37:19 <pixelized[m]> 'ah it's that one'
18:37:22 <louipc> surehehhe
18:37:39 <pixelized[m]> having secure metadata included with transactions is a real selling point for a currency that's meant to actually be used
18:37:41 <pixelized[m]> (i feel)
18:37:57 <apotheon> All this "convenience vs. security" stuff seems like an irrelevancy for the practical angle of this discussion.
18:37:59 <hyperkitty> pixelized[m]: since you've clearly thought about this, what is your rough idea of the maximum size of these messages to catch, say, 80% of uses ?
18:38:30 <apotheon> It probably could be done on the blockchain, but that does have downsides that may not be at all related to security in the discrete case.
18:38:45 <apotheon> The question is whether the downsides are sufficient to stand in the way of doing it.
18:38:59 <apotheon> new Monero fork: Memonero
18:39:04 <pixelized[m]> <hyperkitty "pixelized: since you've clearly "> 140 bytes ish?
18:39:12 <lord_fomo[m]> apotheon: fwiw i'm just grumping about mixing unrelated features into a common system
18:39:18 <lord_fomo[m]> not so much trying to drive home that tradeoff
18:39:30 <lord_fomo[m]> imo keep the blockchain minimal
18:39:34 <lord_fomo[m]> and understandable
18:39:50 <lord_fomo[m]> well built systems should compose well with other such systems
18:39:51 <apotheon> I kinda feel similarly about the minimalism angle.
18:39:56 <pixelized[m]> as do i
18:40:09 <pixelized[m]> i do feel that that's a sound thing to say
18:40:33 <pixelized[m]> and having a system do one thing and do it well, i can agree with that
18:40:52 <lord_fomo[m]> *nix partay
18:40:59 <hyperkitty> Anyway. Monero does have such a system. It is limited to 8 bytes or payload though.
18:41:02 <pixelized[m]> but it also feels limiting to say that a real-life transaction is just the movement of funds
18:41:08 <hyperkitty> of payload.
18:41:20 <pixelized[m]> any transaction has context associated with it
18:41:28 <apotheon> 18:37 < lord_fomo[m]> let's toss text into the real-time audio system
18:41:33 <apotheon> That's not at all what happened, really.
18:41:34 <lord_fomo[m]> yeah whether you bot the dip
18:41:34 <pixelized[m]> heck, even including a pubkey so people can return the funds would be useful
18:41:56 <hyperkitty> There is a patch to allow free text/size, but it bumped into the tx homogeneity issue, which gives attackers purchase points for spying.
18:41:57 <lord_fomo[m]> apotheon: i'm being facetious
18:41:57 <lord_fomo[m]> ish
18:42:16 <lord_fomo[m]> they did originally lob it into a side channel of TDM systems iirc
18:42:18 <lord_fomo[m]> but could be wrong
18:42:19 <pixelized[m]> and arbitrary metadata also adds to what you could do in the realm of automated systems
18:42:34 <pixelized[m]> imagine you're an insurance company who wants monthly payments from customers
18:42:40 <apotheon> What happened was that real-time audio got tossed into the data transfer system, then text -- which was one of two basic data formats for that data transfer system -- basically just fell backward into being paired with devices that handle real-time audio.
18:42:50 <pixelized[m]> if the customers set their monthly transactions up so that their customer ID is included in the metadata
18:42:52 <apotheon> The audio is all running on the internet.
18:43:05 <pixelized[m]> all those incoming transactions can be automatically processed and databases can be updated and whatnot
18:43:09 <apotheon> (except way out at the fringes where the internet hasn't wormed its way into everything yet)
18:43:11 <pixelized[m]> mails can be sent out to people who are late
18:43:21 <lord_fomo[m]> oh shit ur right
18:43:25 <lord_fomo[m]> was introduced in GSM
18:43:32 <lord_fomo[m]> must be thinking of the NA history
18:45:12 <apotheon> I think a pubkey for refund is actually something that fits fairly cleanly with the "do one thing well" ethos for Monero.
18:45:14 <lord_fomo[m]> i'm prolly thinking of sms over pstn or something 😂
18:45:19 <lord_fomo[m]> so yeah you're right bad example
18:45:47 <pixelized[m]> also, the insurance company example also illustrates something else
18:46:05 <pixelized[m]> let's say they ask their customers to set up their transactions so that they send monero monthly, and they also send an email whenever they have transacted
18:46:08 <apotheon> 18:42 < pixelized[m]> if the customers set their monthly transactions up so that their customer ID is included in the metadata
18:46:15 <lord_fomo[m]> huh it was in the original ss7 mobile spec
18:46:17 <lord_fomo[m]> wild
18:46:20 <apotheon> That's a clear use case for a separate receiving address per customer.
18:46:21 <pixelized[m]> now what? if i send an email without also sending monero
18:46:36 <pixelized[m]> they're going to have serious trouble since thousands of customers will be paying the exact same amount
18:46:45 <pixelized[m]> <apotheon "That's a clear use case for a se"> fair enough
18:46:55 <hyperkitty> It's a clear case for a free text field where the custimer can typo in it, forget it, or generally mess it up.
18:47:07 <pixelized[m]> in the case of an insurance company you can reasonably expect that that would be the solution
18:47:23 <apotheon> hyperkitty: I like it.  Funded!
18:48:28 <apotheon> I do feel the concern about the loss of transaction fungibility when messages get attached.
18:48:49 <lord_fomo[m]> > and arbitrary metadata also adds to what you could do in the realm of automated systems
18:48:49 <lord_fomo[m]> but at this point, smart contracts wen
18:48:52 <pixelized[m]> so none of you see how having some easily readable metadata could be a relevant selling point or ever useful in any case?
18:49:05 <hyperkitty> Then how about putting the messages on IPFS, and include an ipfs hash on chain ? Small! NFT compliant! :D
18:49:06 <apotheon> Now that I think about it, an out-of-band communication also interferes with fungibility, at least if the fact two people communicated with each other can be determined by an outside party.
18:49:43 <hyperkitty> Why do you say that ? You seem to have come here with a preconceived idea and do not listen to what was said.
18:49:43 <lord_fomo[m]> :thonkang:
18:49:57 <pixelized[m]> <hyperkitty "Then how about putting the messa"> actually sounds smart
18:50:04 <apotheon> To really make it work, I think might have to be a separate blockchain for comms.  One nice thing about blockchains is that you have to get the same amount of data whether *you* receive something or not.
18:50:16 <pixelized[m]> and like something you could optionally build a system for if there were enough arbitrary metadata space per transaction
18:51:06 <apotheon> pixelized[m]: I'm having a difficult time coming up with a use-case for the parallel data field (I wouldn't exactly call it metadata, necessarily), but I'm sure there *are* such use cases.
18:52:05 <anon_udxf6fdz[m]> <pixelized[m] "because a product price changed "> Thanks for the idea
18:52:11 <anon_udxf6fdz[m]> https://github.com/monero-integrations/moneroodoo/issues/4
18:52:25 <lord_fomo[m]> > so none of you see how having some easily readable metadata could be a relevant selling point or ever useful in any case?
18:52:25 <lord_fomo[m]> for sure it is
18:52:30 <lord_fomo[m]> just don't think it should be in core system
18:52:53 <anon_udxf6fdz[m]> You could build a workflow, where 10 days after the item is marked as shipped the metadata is deleted.
18:53:04 <pixelized[m]> <anon_udxf6fdz[m] "Thanks for the idea"> no problem 😂
18:53:07 <hyperkitty> There was a clever proposal to include a refund address in a bulletproof.
18:53:09 <apotheon> I'm actually having a difficult time these days really grasping the value of IPFS as it's implemented.
18:53:24 <hyperkitty> Addressing by hash.
18:53:38 <hyperkitty> ie, protection against tampering.
18:53:57 <hyperkitty> (my "put it on ipfs" was an obvious joke btw)
18:54:08 <lord_fomo[m]> apotheon: that's cuz you don't get web 3.0
18:54:34 <apotheon> Addressing by hash is akin to addressing by IP address, in some respects.
18:55:36 <pixelized[m]> <hyperkitty "(my "put it on ipfs" was an obvi"> (was just jumping on it to say that you'd need the parallel data field for that sort of thing)
18:55:47 <apotheon> 'kay
18:55:49 <apotheon> going AFK
18:55:50 <apotheon> ta
18:55:59 <pixelized[m]> 👋 nice talking
18:56:07 * lord_fomo[m] posted a file: (1233KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/IwRlrxguXppNsMSasAgnUFUv/web_3.0.png >
18:57:12 <hyperkitty> pixelized[m]: fyi: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/6410
18:59:28 <pixelized[m]> thanks
19:03:14 <rupee[m]> .fountain
19:03:51 <rupee[m]> .help
19:03:51 <Wallet> rupee[m]: I'm a cool multi-coin multi-platform bot by Bill48105. Docs: https://bill48105.github.io/wallet/ | My core commands: .balance .deposit .faucet .ping .soak .tip .val .withdraw  | .help <games|share|misc|other> to see others | .help <cmd> for more details.
19:04:39 <rupee[m]> .jackpot 0.00001
19:04:40 <Wallet> rupee[m]: [ # | # | $ ] 1x » SHARING 0.00001 XMR [997f40c3] | Total was <= 0. Minimum: 0.000015 XMR. (Min per user met?)
19:05:01 <rupee[m]> .jackpot 0.000015
19:05:01 <Wallet> rupee[m]: [ @ | ~ | $ ] 1x » SHARING 0.000015 XMR [a75d368a] | @bonuspot soaked 0.000001 XMR (0.000015 Total) upon 15 users @ 745 minutes boogerlad nioc chaper Gingeropolous nselhrjtssqq louipc leonardus Bi​ll48105 moneromooo Wallet charolastra ferox_thinkpad vtnerd dEBRUYNE hyc [87cb09f0]
19:05:24 <rupee[m]> woot woot. winner.
19:05:38 <nioc> rupee[m]: I owe you lunch or dinner
19:05:43 <nioc> your choice
19:05:56 <rupee[m]> this one's on bonuspot
19:06:38 <charolastra> that will be a very cheap dinner :P
19:06:41 <louipc> txrpe
19:06:44 <rupee[m]> .soak $1
19:06:44 <Wallet> rupee[m]: Really soak 0.0037998 XMR? y/n (10s)
19:06:48 <rupee[m]> y
19:06:49 <Wallet> rupee[m] soaked 0.00025 XMR (0.0037998 Total) upon 15 users @ 746 minutes moneromooo nselhrjtssqq charolastra hyc dEBRUYNE Gingeropolous louipc boogerlad leonardus vtnerd Wallet chaper nioc Bi​ll48105 ferox_thinkpad @bonuspot (0.0000498 scraps) [f4db7309]
19:06:55 <louipc> txrpe
19:07:12 <leonardus> thank you!
19:07:17 <nioc> meow
19:07:18 <rupee[m]> .calc 0.07 * 365
19:07:18 <Wallet> rupee[m]: 25.55
19:07:32 <rupee[m]> don't quit your day jobs :)
19:07:56 <nioc> too late
19:09:51 <rupee[m]> .8ball isittrue
19:09:52 <Wallet> rupee[m]: UNSURE - Try again
19:10:10 <ferox_thinkpad> i dont get what just happened
19:10:48 <rupee[m]> you're rich
19:10:59 <rupee[m]> .balance
19:10:59 <Wallet> rupee[m]: • Your balance is: 0.00202317 XMR (≈0.53 USD)
19:11:07 <charolastra> not even in zimbabwe
19:11:27 <ferox_thinkpad> how do i check my balance
19:11:36 <rupee[m]> type .balance
19:11:39 <ferox_thinkpad> .balance
19:11:41 <Wallet> ferox_thinkpad: Your default coin is now set to XMR. Change with coins command.
19:11:41 <Wallet> ferox_thinkpad: • Your balance is: 0.000251 XMR (≈0.07 USD)
19:11:53 <ferox_thinkpad> is this real XMR?
19:11:57 <rupee[m]> yes
19:11:58 <rupee[m]> .help
19:11:58 <Wallet> rupee[m]: I'm a cool multi-coin multi-platform bot by Bill48105. Docs: https://bill48105.github.io/wallet/ | My core commands: .balance .deposit .faucet .ping .soak .tip .val .withdraw  | .help <games|share|misc|other> to see others | .help <cmd> for more details.
19:12:07 <ferox_thinkpad> how the hell
19:12:09 <rupee[m]> ^ there are the instructions for how to withdraw
19:12:15 <ferox_thinkpad> ok thanks lol
19:12:35 <charolastra> so they are actually monero IOUs
19:12:46 <ferox_thinkpad> ah
19:12:53 <rupee[m]> right right
19:13:03 <ferox_thinkpad> so you pay me 7 cents to create my own XMR wallet?
19:13:42 <charolastra> wait, why don't you have a monero wallet yet?
19:13:56 <ferox_thinkpad> im a tard
19:14:04 <ferox_thinkpad> btc + shitcoin holder
19:14:24 <charolastra> shame on you
19:14:27 <ferox_thinkpad> i know
19:14:33 <ferox_thinkpad> fuck btc
19:14:38 <charolastra> now is your chance!
19:15:18 <rupee[m]> .deposit
19:15:18 <Wallet> rupee[m]: Send XMR to 83qSCgosKNphbFN5nhtw5KWusNDXMzTdJ6GkJnkfBuRPFPwSxS7wzGTLyk79VaCC4zNiswgMiUZ1ZduwFw7Tx2gZLpkrqDe | credited after 3 confirms.
19:15:29 <ferox_thinkpad> so whats the point if not to encourage newbs to enter the game
19:15:50 <Bill48105> nice thanks for the soak rupee :)
19:16:02 <rupee[m]> np. thanks for the bot :)
19:16:21 <dEBRUYNE> rupee[m]: thanks for the drop! :p
19:16:50 <Bill48105> yup my pleasure. feel free to join one of the channels on matrix that has it too but you found out how to use it here so that works
19:20:54 <Bill48105> figure with the bridges here in main chain too much bot use will annoy some so it might make sense to use another channel. the bot supports multi channel soaking so people who talk here can get included in soaks in the alt channel if desired to be setup that way
19:21:53 <Bill48105> that feature was mostly for that purpose because discord for example supports sub channels so it's nice to keep the bot noise split but still include the people in main
19:22:33 <Bill48105> but yeah i'll quit rambling. happy easter, happy sunday, happy whatever cheers :)
19:23:09 <hyperkitty> Happy surrendering to palantir!
19:23:14 <ferox_thinkpad> again, what is the point in this?
19:23:34 <ferox_thinkpad> no disrespect intended, just don't understand
19:23:34 <Quotes> But it's easy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w
19:23:35 <hyperkitty> The bot ? For having fun really.
19:23:53 <hyperkitty> For some, maybe losing their monero to games trying to actually gain some instead.
19:24:39 <rupee[m]> .tip ferox_thinkpad 0.000015 stop asking questions, just take the money
19:24:39 <Wallet> rupee[m] tipped 0.000015 XMR to ferox_thinkpad [f7df068c]
19:24:39 <rupee[m]> i guess I broke it
19:24:54 <ferox_thinkpad> so just sharing monero purely as hobbyists?
19:25:22 <rupee[m]> yeah, you can tip people - so an easy way to send money to people on chat.
19:25:31 <ferox_thinkpad> awesome
19:26:13 <ferox_thinkpad> what kind of tx fee does a $0.07 monero value tx incur?
19:26:50 <hyperkitty> You can see typical fees on xmrchain.net. I think it's below 2 cents atm.
19:27:21 <ferox_thinkpad> does a $10,000 tx have the same tx fee as a $10 tx
19:27:24 <hyperkitty> 11e-6 monero seems average. Multiplty by 250 or whatever.
19:27:39 <hyperkitty> Depends how many inputs. If same number, yes.
19:27:52 <hyperkitty> The fee is based on tx size, not amount transfered.
19:31:21 <Bill48105> the tip went rupee did you not see it your end?
19:31:36 <rupee[m]> it did. it just took a little while.
19:31:50 <Bill48105> oh ok gotcha this end was instant
19:32:20 <Bill48105> but yeah the bot is like any tool. it's as useful as your needs & understanding of what it can do
19:33:33 <rupee[m]> .8ball is the bot the best tool for every job?
19:33:33 <Wallet> rupee[m]: NO
19:33:38 <Bill48105> smart bot
19:33:39 <rupee[m]> ^
19:33:52 <Bill48105> but yeah i can see the "joke" commands annoying people
19:34:30 <Bill48105> most people wont complaint about getting their favorite coin given to them unless it's so small dust it's annoying.
19:35:07 <Bill48105> the commands on the bot can be limited per channel too. like only core commands could be allowed here
19:37:35 <Bill48105> it supports output redirection as well. so say there was #monero-bots this channel could be set to redirect use there (spits out the outcome in other channel with "Please use bot in #monero-bots" rate limited to once per 90 seconds max
20:45:53 <anovfymcbjsa> When Tari finally comes out, will you dump your Monero to buy it? Will others?
20:51:07 <chile09[m]> what's Tari
20:54:59 <hyperkitty> An altcoin based on mimblewimble.
20:55:11 <hyperkitty> It will be partly merged mined with monero.
21:05:07 <apotheon> hyperkitty: I think I prefer the name moneromoo.
21:06:54 <Mochi101> meow
21:07:17 <hyperkitty> |\/| ( ) ( ) ( )
21:08:07 <apotheon> The more I read of that pull request thread, the less I like the idea.
21:08:10 <Mochi101> |\/| E ( ) \/\/
21:08:56 <apotheon> The fact that there doesn't seem to be a way to do that without compromising anonymity makes me want to find something like Monero without this feature if Monero adopts it.
21:09:39 <moneromooo> There is: plonk 128 bytes in every tx. If nothing, stuff random data in. If you're sending to more than one person, more htan one of whom needs such data, send > 1 tx.
21:10:00 <moneromooo> Of course, it means you're hard limited to 128 bytes.
21:10:28 <moneromooo> It's basically what we now do for integrated addresses. Just increasing the limit from 8 bytes to 128 (or whatever).
21:10:32 <apotheon> moneromooo: It looks like everyone who's enthusiastically on-board with adding a comment field wants to (perhaps "eventually") remove limits on comment field length, either directly or effectively, though.
21:10:54 <apotheon> . . . so that, while it's technically possible to do it without compromising anonymity, I'm not sure it's socially possible.
21:11:12 <moneromooo> Define "socially possible" ?
21:11:42 <apotheon> as in "people who like the feature and want to expand it more will probably overwhelm those who don't"
21:12:01 <apotheon> It's kinda the "camel's nose" problem.
21:12:05 <apotheon> That's how it looks, anyway.
21:12:28 <moneromooo> Is this intended to be an argument against it, or just a related comment ?
21:12:55 <apotheon> um
21:13:18 <apotheon> I'm not sure.  I'm just describing my reaction to reading some of that thread of discussion.
21:13:28 <moneromooo> (mostly because someone who wants arbitrary length can want this regardless of whether there's a fixed length one existing)
21:13:34 <apotheon> I feel foreboding, and hope that Monero doesn't end up with any compromise to its anonymity.
21:14:18 <moneromooo> I guess I'm biased, I wanted to keep extra for a long while, hoping people would use it to extend with interesting stuff :/
21:14:31 <moneromooo> And what we got was stupid "mined by thispool.com" strings -_-
21:14:38 <apotheon> There are costs involved in trying to find a replacement, such as waiting for one to mature enough to use when the previous niche-filler has already retreated from full utility within that niche.
21:15:05 <apotheon> I do kinda like the idea of extended functionality like that.  I just . . . feel some foreboding.
21:15:23 <moneromooo> I can't disagree...
21:15:33 <apotheon> I guess it's "wait and see, and hope things don't turn to shit".
21:15:58 <apotheon> I also don't want Monero held back by overcautious policy.
21:16:01 <apotheon> ugh
21:16:35 <moneromooo> Actually, we have (or will soon have) merge mining, which is an interesting use of extra.
21:17:04 <apotheon> When will blockchain cryptocurrencies just become enough of a commonplace thing so that we'll have a truly thriving, high practical utility ecosystem of differing implementations so that there's always a good choice for what one wants?
21:17:28 <apotheon> I guess I'm not 100% certain about the benefits of merge mining.  I don't know much about the idea.
21:17:34 <moneromooo> You mean, I want to do X, let's use chain Y today ?
21:17:37 <apotheon> I'm not even entirely sure how it's defined.
21:18:06 <apotheon> moneromooo: Yeah, I guess, if I understand the form of your clarification question.
21:18:26 <moneromooo> The idea's to mine blcks which are valid for two chains. So you can mine a second (or third...) chain without extra energy. So more incentive (two block rewards).
21:19:02 <moneromooo> When monero reaches tail emission, this shold provide extra incentive to mine.
21:19:31 <moneromooo> In fact, I guess it does mean more energy, since it should be proportional to incentives... Hmm...
21:19:35 <apotheon> What I mean about a thriving ecosystem of cryptocurrencies is basically this: I don't think the goal is One Cryptocurrency To Rule Them All, but rather shit-tons of cryptocurrencies with real, practical utility "in the present", so that whatever you want to use, and however much you want to use it, it exists and is not so rickety, experimental, or dangerous that there's substantive need to
21:19:42 <apotheon> hesitate -- unless those characteristics are what you want.
21:20:19 <apotheon> Yeah, I don't think I see a huge benefit for energy efficiency just from that, but it does seem like it would potentially improve blockchain/network health.
21:21:49 <apotheon> On the subject of energy efficiency . . . sorta . . . I'm not as worried about the "OMG DESTROY WORLD" argument as I am "OMG UNIVERSAL PEAK ENTROPY".
21:22:04 <apotheon> I do plan to live forever, after all, so that might be a long-term issue.
21:25:41 <apotheon> I think the shorter-term issues are more eminently solvable than people realize, *especially* if we can break funding (and thus research) free of state controls.
21:25:54 <apotheon> hmm
21:26:15 <apotheon> What about . . . merge-mining something like folding@home?
21:26:22 <apotheon> Is that a sensible notion?
21:26:38 <moneromooo> Merge mining requires the exact same PoW to be used.
21:26:44 <apotheon> I guess not.  The folding@home part would be the solving part of the mining process, not the thing mined.
21:26:51 <apotheon> yeah, what you said
21:26:59 <moneromooo> There are some PoWs which do "useful" work.
21:27:17 <moneromooo> It might be hard to make something that ties to difficulty well though.
21:27:35 <apotheon> I've heard of such things, but not about them, if you know what I mean, so I'm not sure what projects use "useful" PoW mining, or what "useful" things they're doing.
21:27:37 <moneromooo> ie, you need to tailor the difficulty of the problem you generate.
21:27:51 <apotheon> Calculating PI seems reasonably straightforward as an idea, I guess.
21:28:13 <moneromooo> The one I remember finds Cunningham numbers, which is said to be "useful", for some definition of useful.
21:28:18 <apotheon> Then again, I don't know enough about pi calculation to be sure I'm not talking out of my ass on that.
21:28:35 <moneromooo> But then, actual heating would be even more useful when needed.
21:29:12 <apotheon> true
21:29:14 <moneromooo> IIRC there's a fairly straightforward algorithm for pi. You need something for which the solution isn't massive amounts of data.
21:29:25 <moneromooo> And which is much to verify than to generate.
21:29:27 <apotheon> Mining in winter could save some heating bills.
21:29:35 <apotheon> Maybe I should just mine on cold days.
21:30:12 <apotheon> moneromooo: . . . much *harder* to verify?
21:30:22 <moneromooo> easier
21:30:57 <moneromooo> That's a problem with CN and randomx. They're not trivial to verify.
21:31:45 <moneromooo> Well, two adjacent properties. Fast to verify, and much faster to verify than generate. Since genreating involves calculating many hashes.
21:32:23 <apotheon> hmm
21:32:37 <apotheon> I see what you mean by verify and generate, now.  I misunderstood how you were using the terms.
21:33:06 <apotheon> I thought you meant "verify" as in perform the calculation, and "generate" in terms of "write out a block and get it saved".
21:33:29 <apotheon> You meant "generate the result of the calculation" and "verify that it's correct".
21:33:53 <apotheon> I don't know crap about "CN" and "randomx".
21:34:17 <moneromooo> Enough to know they're not super fast to verify.
21:34:38 <apotheon> I *don't* know enough about them to know they're not super fast to verify.
21:35:12 <apotheon> What (separately) are CN and randomx, in a nutshell?
21:36:01 <moneromooo> PoW hash functions monero uses. CN (and variants) since its inception to about 1.5 years ago, randomx since.
21:36:23 <moneromooo> And they're a lot slower to execute than, eg, SHA256.
21:36:41 <apotheon> ah
21:37:27 <apotheon> Was the change from CN to randomx essentially an attempt to move closer to what you described as the need for a PoW scheme?
21:38:42 <moneromooo> No. It was to move to something that's harder for ASICs to run well.
21:38:44 <apotheon> (I have decent native facility for math, I think, but I'm no mathematician.  When I was about seven or so, I overheard my father telling an acquaintance that if I gave him a different answer than a calculator he'd check the calculator to make sure there wasn't something wrong with it, but my math education didn't go particularly far.)
21:38:53 <apotheon> Oh, right, I think I knew that at some point.
21:40:01 <apotheon> I want to start seeing what "useful" things people are doing with PoW calculations, now.
21:40:21 <apotheon> I'm not entirely sure what practical use Cunningham numbers offer in general.
21:41:20 <moneromooo> I suspect what practical use Cunningham numbers offer in general is about nil.
21:48:38 <apotheon> I guess I should ask a mathematician who's vaguely conversant with engineering needs to be sure, but . . . yeah, I don't see its use so far.
21:49:00 <apotheon> It probably has high value for someone writing a Master's thesis about Cunningham numbers.
22:14:06 <BigBro91> hey
22:14:29 <BigBro91> Anyone fond of Feather wallet
22:41:40 <leonardus> https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/mjy2ah/the_xmr_crypto_spam_attack_is_at_4_weeks_424/
23:38:31 <hyc> gridcoin was tied in with BOINC or something right?
23:39:16 <hyc> and there's this from Intel https://steemit.com/steemstem/@donkeykong9000/patent-blockchain-system-with-nucleobase-sequencing-as-proof-of-work-could-this-work-for-gridcoin
23:41:07 <hyc> sequencing nucleotides sounds like useful work, but damned expensive to verify correctness of results
23:47:24 <as2333> https://ip-lawyer-tools.com/qa-forums/topic/patent-for-a-method-to-train-a-cat-with-a-laser-pointer/
23:49:45 <hyc> there's a method??
23:51:06 <as2333> hyc there's a PATENTED method =)
23:57:13 <hyc> we live in such a high tch world
23:57:18 <hyc> high tech
23:58:19 <hyc> speaking of which, the batteries in my laser pointer are dying. the cats will be so bored.