00:02:37 Welp this is where signal signs their death warrent 00:03:12 Kind of wonder how will snowden diehards would react 00:03:19 And elon musk 00:03:54 Yeah I kind of think so honestly 00:04:09 I mean, it made me download element 00:04:28 Now I'll look like a jackass to my friends I made download signal 00:06:14 I mean you are Dr. Douchebag after all 00:06:24 apotheon: that's the guy that i found nitter and teddit through 🥳 00:06:31 he's got some coolio gh repos 00:08:23 What does this all have to do with signal? 00:08:38 mobile coin is big bro op 00:08:39 😂 00:09:12 ieatglueinthegulag: signal integrated that cryptocoin into their app 00:09:42 Says alot about the politics inside their company 00:10:48 What even is the point? 00:11:34 That signals policies don't match what they advertise 00:13:14 there's some sketch shit going on there iirc 00:13:30 some 🚨 00:13:44 Why do they even need crypto in the first place, it's a fucking messaging protocol 00:14:03 cuz fb-coin failed 00:14:10 libre-coin 00:14:12 er wtv 00:15:57 It's definitely super sketchy 00:16:05 holdup 00:16:10 i gots da linkz 00:16:42 https://www.theverge.com/22249391/signal-app-abuse-messaging-employees-violence-misinformation 00:17:20 https://stillnessinthestorm.com/2021/02/signal-app-is-a-government-op-cia-connction-revealed/ 00:17:48 https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/fbi-tool-access-private-signal-messages-locked-iphones 00:17:51 enuf fud? 00:17:59 switch to Session not Signal lol 00:18:15 or onionshare 00:18:55 I'll need some more 00:19:19 I spent weeks converting people from whatsapp/telegram to signal a while ago 00:19:44 I'll need a lot of FUD to push them away from signal now 00:20:02 just say snowden uses it 00:20:02 tell them something something "now take da pillz = matrix" 00:20:09 don't bother with irc 00:20:12 tinas hate acros 00:20:16 signal's 'servers' are on the amazon-NSA 'cloud' 00:20:34 centralized apps are suspect 00:20:41 it's still a MITM 00:20:52 and there's still metadata 00:21:00 even despite the encryption 00:21:14 but signal says they dont KEEP the metadata! 00:21:25 they just forward it to the NSA realtime 00:21:25 NSA? Morono protects me. 00:21:33 for how long don't they keep it? 00:21:36 Ive used signal for a few years 00:21:39 Honestly so annoying 00:21:42 That they did this 00:21:45 chile09[m], hehehe 00:21:56 I do a lot of IRL business and work through signal and even talk to my gf through it 00:22:23 Most people I interact with through signal aren't even into technology and getting them to switch to something else is going to be a PIA but I don't want to continue using it 00:23:15 well signal is marginally better than something like whasap but the bar is pretty low... 00:23:16 was there some reason signal sucks all of a sudden 00:23:22 Its a shame as soon as a privacy centric app starts getting mainstream appeal they go and fuck it off 00:23:22 best part about nsa is most people who know about them have N-decoys for them 00:23:30 so they keep tabs on the fake version of everyone who matters 00:23:47 just burnin the gpus mining noise 😂 00:23:51 bishes 00:24:10 Ugh I kind of agree. Maybe more people will look into signal now because of this sketch shit to see if it's actually a psyops 00:24:30 sig protocol i think is fine 00:24:42 it's been audited pretty well 00:24:53 This is scary but I'll need more info on how they actually did it. Could just be dumb criminals or something 00:25:04 it's likely phone storage 00:25:17 I believe they were unlocking the phone and they likely did not have a pin set to access signal 00:25:19 some magic there 00:25:30 So it was as simple as opening the app 00:25:37 If that's the case that's not really a flaw 00:25:38 could be yeah 00:26:01 Sketch maybe but not really evidence 00:26:13 yah 00:26:17 that one's just nutter fud 00:27:23 But I'm def skeptical of signal now. But I'm not going to bother getting people to switch when I just got them to switch to signal until more info comes out 00:27:23 But yeah, mobilecoin was such a stupid decision. This isn't 2015. You can't just do PnDs anymore without it backfiring 00:28:06 PnDs? 00:28:09 I think it should be a requirement to use disappearing messages on signal anyways lol 00:28:24 Probably dumb criminals if they're talking about selling guns and murder for hire and not using disappearing messages 00:28:32 I guess everyone just wants to get on the shitcoin train and make some quick bucks off of illiterate boomers 00:30:55 lmao 00:31:16 the same boomers CBs are saving with the fiat pamp 00:32:58 Sucks to be a boomer I guess 00:33:22 Pump & Dumps 00:34:09 DrDouchebag[m], ahhh of course. Sorry, was too dumb to figure it out. 00:38:00 that a bridge in a bridge? lol 00:42:17 why isn't blockchain sync traffic encrypted/ 00:42:18 ? 00:44:44 wat 00:45:05 it's the rest of us that gets cucked 00:46:47 chile09[m], maybe because it's public data anyway? maybe a 'feature' inherited from bitcoin? just guessing - I don't know the actual reason. 02:02:51 Most likely this was done because Brian Acton (unbeknownst to most people) loaned Signal $50 million dollars interest free. People act like this app was made from a donation. He probably wants to get his money back quicker by shilling this shitcoin on his fucking app. They can add shitcoin support, but can't make it sign up without a phone number or have username support. Absolutely retarded 02:04:38 There is no such thing as an ultra rich person giving money away no strings attached. They are 99% greedy power hungry dicks who thinks everyone else is stupid. I love the app and its a shame it is coming to this 02:04:52 yeah requiring a phone number was a red flag since day one 02:07:12 not really. it started out as a way to encrypt sms 02:07:22 naturally people would be using phone numbers 02:08:47 Agreed. Now there is zero excuse for them to not implement username support or non-phone sign up though and people need to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt as to why they haven't implemented it. 02:09:32 I'm not really not shit talking Signal because I use them daily, but they are pissing off a lot of people doing this. 02:09:47 * I'm really not shit talking Signal because I use them daily, but they are pissing off a lot of people doing this. 02:10:27 don't get mad. get busy 02:11:23 old server source is released. client code is released. theres already some forks with new features too 02:11:27 no excuses 02:13:17 I understand that. Can we just come to the consensus that Signal may be not implementing "anonymous" sign up to stay within regulatory reach within the US? I just don't know why they wouldn't do it themselves for any other reason 02:16:09 that question was never answered on a forum/faq/ama or whatever? 02:23:59 Unsure if a company would be truthful answering a question like that. The company makes it obvious that they are cool with people forking it, but it is alarming to see them not implement features that have been asked for years and now decide to promote a shitcoin for payments 02:25:21 I'll kill the conversation though as I agree, I love the idea of new forks coming out and people branching off of relying on them. You make great points and my claims are purely speculatory, even if they're common sense to some degree 02:43:44 if a node receives a transaction that has the same key image, it sets "double_spend_seen = true" right? If so, does it broadcast that to the rest of the network to warn other nodes? 02:45:50 the phone requirement is only there for surveillance/spying purposes. Like I said, a red flaf, just like the 3 millions morlonpoke got from the pentagon. 02:45:59 flag* 02:48:44 >it started out as a way to encrypt sms 02:48:46 wrong 02:49:00 that may be true now 02:49:04 wrong? 02:49:07 "Signal is the successor of the RedPhone encrypted voice calling app and the TextSecure encrypted texting program." 02:49:52 FUK has bееn intеnsеly hostilе to Monеro for ovеr 4 yеars. Making minеrs for Monеro, making a pool for Monеro, making codе that Monеro copiеd, not using bugs to stеal millions from еxchangеs. Wow. Such grеat hostility. 02:50:11 as2333: u can read? 02:50:41 also the protocol is based on the otr protocol I think, so not a sms based thing but an internet chat protocol 02:51:22 there was never a need to require phone numbers 03:05:06 as2333: Signal isn't OTR, and TextSecure used SMS for transport in the early days. 03:05:18 I was an early adopter, before RedPhone even existed. 03:06:52 as2333: Signal changed things, so that it no longer used SMS, but someone forked an early version for people who still wanted TextSecure-style encrypted SMS and called it Silence, so you can still use roughly the original TextSecure (under a different name) if you like. 03:06:54 ok, textsecure was for sms but signal isn't 03:07:17 so my point remains 03:07:33 signal requires a phone number for surveillance purposes 03:07:47 the 'historical' explanation fails 03:08:30 Well . . . the "historical" excuse is probably still used, and there's also probably some kind of justification about knowing who's on the other end of the conversation. 03:10:51 . . . but I don't find those very comforting at all. 03:11:12 I'm skeptical of Moxie's involvement in pretty much anything these days. 03:11:55 I've also always been less than comfortable with the metadata situation with centralized services for Signal. 03:13:33 The only thing that kept me using Signal for *anything* was that it was the best thing available (technically) that was actually used by enough people for me to bother, other than the extremely practical-paranoid types. Almost-normal people use Signal, and it beats the shit out of Telegram and WhatsApp on the technical issues. 03:14:46 telegram and whatsap are allegedly 'end to end' encrypted too? 03:15:01 They're different implementations of the Signal protocol. 03:15:07 ah yes 03:15:33 so I don't see much difference then? signal's server are on the amazon 'cloud' 03:15:40 servers* 03:17:41 WhatsApp has an implementation that handles some key negotiation stuff in a way that's supposedly more convenient for users, but is also susceptible to a MITM attack when someone's key changes. I guess it's supposed to be okay because (theoretically) only insiders are able to exploit that. 03:18:05 That's a big difference; it's far worse than Signal in that regard. 03:18:33 Moxie, though, defended Facebook's decisions about that, saying it was a reasonable trade-off for user experience. 03:19:25 there was some logic to this: `Signal chose to utilize AWS because Amazon AWS already hosts more than half of all smartphone backends, making it difficult to block without breaking most of the Internet and difficult to tell apart from other traffic.` 03:19:28 It came up when someone announced finding a back door in WhatsApp. Among others, Moxie said it isn't a back door -- which is technically correct. It's not a back door. It's a vulnerability that allows Facebook to manufacture back doors as needed. 03:20:04 Telegram uses their own MTProto (iirc) crypto and is not default E2EE. WhatsApp backups are unencrypted iirc, and stored on their servers so E2EE doesn't matter much if someone you talk to uses their backup. Unless they fixed that, but afaik they didn't. Signal doesn't have those same issues. 03:20:04 Technically speaking, Signal is just superior imo. May not _stay_ that way, but like Sealed Sender is a very underrated feature for example. 03:20:27 apotheon, ah ok, so whatsap is sabotaged. 03:20:32 Telegram has its own problems. I don't recall the technical details as clearly as those of WhatsApp, but I'd place it somewhere between Signal and WhatsApp for how much I would(n't) trust it. 03:20:49 Moxie seems to keep making terrible decisions though, so who knows where it ends up tbqh 03:21:28 Oh, about the E2EE for Telegram, they evidently (unless I misremember) fixed that for one-on-one communication, but it's still not default for group chats. 03:21:57 phone[m], is that the official explanation from signal? I don't know what 'smarphone backend' means anyway. 03:22:26 also it's not clear who's going to block what? 03:22:26 Yeah, I think Moxie sold his soul a long time ago. I suspect his defense of WhatsApp was probably related to the fact that Facebook is the primary source of funding for the Signal non-profit foundation, of which Moxie is high muckety-muck. 03:22:27 Right, afaict there's nothing necessarily wrong with MTProto, but it is only for Secret Chats and not available in group chats so 🤷‍♂️ 03:23:40 as2333: What diverter[m] meant about blocking things is that it's not reasonable for users to block AWS, or for Signal to bother routing around it, because AWS is already used for a bunch of smartphone related services that people supposedly can't avoid. 03:23:56 diverter[m]: . . . or correct me if I'm mistaken in that explanation of what you meant. 03:24:39 facebook is the funding source for their non-profit? 03:24:45 diverter[m]: I think where it ends up is that Moxie is selling another piece of his soul so that Whisper Systems gets a shit-ton of MobileCoin and he can be a very wealthy man (unless MobileCoin just crashes and burns, as it should). 03:24:51 (but probably won't) 03:25:04 Oh no I agree with that, I mean the bigger the crowd the better to me. AWS makes sense in that regard, as long as the encryption is proper, which by all accounts it is 03:25:08 phone[m]: Last I checked, I'm pretty sure it was the biggest source, yeah. 03:25:37 https://www.wired.com/story/signal-foundation-whatsapp-brian-acton/ 03:25:49 phone[m]: The Signal non-profit is supposed to be for care and maintenance of Signal protocol stuff, which is used by WhatsApp, and now Facebook is doing some kind of Signal protocol integration with Facebook Messenger too, I believe. 03:25:54 the point is that amazon-NSA is the attacker - the bigger the 'crowd' the more fucked people are. 03:26:14 it's not about encryption but 'metadata' 03:26:21 how do you solve it? and how do you get people to adopt it? 03:26:26 But iirc there was an issue a few months back where the Iranian(?) govt was able to sniff out Signal packets and block traffic, but I think they patched that 03:26:47 phone[m], you don't use amazon-NSA for your servers at least. Frankly that's a 'no brainer' 03:27:16 that's actually another thing that gives signal game away 03:27:25 Well I mean, there is empirical proof of what Signal handed over in court once, idk how much stock you put in that but it isn't like they had a shitload of data they turned over 03:27:37 where else do you host hyper-scalar infrastructure? 03:27:55 you can do a foia request 03:28:19 the signal fucktards should take care about their own nazi goverment instead of messing with iran 03:28:26 doubt you're going to put hyperscalar on hetzner (who will hand over a disk if coerced). 03:28:29 take care of* 03:29:13 it's obvious that the biggest problems are caused by the US govt, not by the iranian government. 03:29:16 Its already out there, that's what I'm saying. Date and time of account creation, phone number, and date and time of last connection to the server. That's what they handed over. 03:29:37 big question i would have is that enough to keep someone up at night? 03:29:54 🤷‍♂️ 03:30:04 i'm not losing sleep, but that's just me. 03:30:46 all governments are problematic. iran is far from a poster child for honour 03:31:59 phone[m], lawl 03:32:04 "Signal queues end-to-end encrypted messages on its servers for delivery to devices that are temporarily offline" 03:32:21 "Additional technical information is stored on our servers, including randomly generated authentication tokens, keys, push tokens, and other material that is necessary to establish calls and transmit messages" 03:32:31 Imo, Signal is the best to use if you are a US citizen right now, or a fork like Molly. If outside the US, I'm personally a fan of Threema. 03:32:31 If only a few nerds use your shit, and everyone else uses insecure SMS because your messaging app can't be an SMS replacement for US comms, then who gives a fuck how secure it is. Signal gives the best onboarding chance for US normies in my experience, and it's not even close. 03:32:53 * phone[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/BlwRLiZBTYmibcrlMKuItPfR/message.txt > 03:33:17 So, it turns out the president of the Signal Foundation is the WhatsApp guy who literally sold out to Facebook. That's nice. 03:33:24 I'd forgotten that. 03:33:31 i don't work there dude, just went through their interview process and use their service. if you like you can email moxie. i'm sure if he's not sailing on a boat in the black sea you both can have a nice chat :-) 03:35:56 diverter[m]: I think Session and Briar both look better, technically, though I haven't gotten in-depth on either of them. Their basic design philosophies are better, though, in that they avoid the centralization and identification issues of Signal. 03:36:35 diverter[m]: That's for US as well as elsewhere. 03:37:45 I used to be okay with Signal as a way to deal with people who aren't as insistent as me on using stuff that doesn't smell bad, but the way things are going with this MobileCoin fiasco I'm inclined to back away quickly. 03:39:23 I treated Signal as basically barely better than cleartext SMS, but now I'd rather see if I can get people to move off Signal to something better, and seriously consider not talking to them about anything via Signal any longer no matter what they say. 03:39:55 "In June 2016, Marlinspike told The Intercept that "the closest piece of information to metadata that the Signal server stores... bla bla 03:40:03 Convincing people to use Signal is, evidently, rapidly turning into a way to accidentally getting people to buy into a scamcoin. 03:40:07 s/getting/get/ 03:40:21 "Signal's developers have asserted that their servers do not keep logs about who called whom and when" 03:40:31 .val 0.006880 03:40:31 somethingUniqueR: Help: .val coin - Ticker prices for common coins & fiats. No value results in market details 03:40:32 do not "keep" 03:40:33 sure 03:40:39 apotheon, exactly 03:40:41 woa signal shitstorm engage 03:40:43 😂 03:40:49 They collect logs, because their service wouldn't really be maintainable otherwise, but they don't keep it. 03:40:55 https://signal.org/bigbrother/eastern-virginia-grand-jury/ 03:41:03 .val 0.006880 xmr 03:41:04 somethingUniqueR: ≈$1.7638 • ≈ value of: 0.00688 XMR • Source: cmc/ccc/altm 03:41:09 * diverter[m] uploaded an image: (25KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/usethe.tools/xwFqsiroOfiSWsXeHypOEaFP/Screenshot_20210407-234006_Drive.jpg > 03:41:18 .balance 03:41:19 somethingUniqueR: • Your balance is: 0.0001258 XMR (≈0.03 USD) 03:41:27 woaaa 03:41:33 diverter[m], ? 03:41:42 Take it how you want to, but that's how it turned out then. 03:41:48 that legit entry1 or you just rantin 03:41:58 if so that's mega weak sauces 03:42:33 diverter[m], see https://signal.org/legal/ 03:42:35 Is entry1 someone on Matrix who isn't showing up in IRC? 03:42:58 . . . or are these responses to messages from a while back? 03:43:06 Lol I have bad reception apparently, that was supposed to send when the pic did lol 03:44:12 diverter[m], I mean, the signal post from 2016 is contradicted by their current 'legal' page. 03:45:10 diverter[m], it's obvious that they know who talks to who and when. And there's no reason to belive that they DON"T 'share' this info with the US govt. 03:45:57 I suspect that Signal may soon collect more than it did historically, if it doesn't already. That's gotta be too tempting a benefit for the company to resist for long. 03:46:20 There's almost certainly going to be more need for some metadata to deal with the integrated MobileCoin wallet, too. 03:46:58 I doubt it's quite as nefarious in intent as as2333 makes it seem, but that doesn't mean things aren't getting worse. 03:47:07 https://teddit.net/r/wallstreetbets/comments/mmhtlm/citadel_when_the_launches/ 03:47:10 to lighten da mood 03:48:17 if we're already in a world where peeps using signal are tinas 03:48:20 we making progress 03:48:21 yea i don't believe signal's was founded on malicious intent 03:48:24 so cheer tf up 03:48:34 apotheon: and if you don't use mobile coin 03:48:36 ? 03:48:48 but basically they all end up that way 03:48:53 apotheon, I regard the author as completely untrustworthy. His connection with twitter is yet another big red flag. 03:48:54 louipc: nice 03:48:58 oh 03:49:00 not louipc 03:49:02 lord_fomo[m]: 03:49:13 Idk what to say man don't use it I guess. Like I said, if you are in the US I guess you just gotta cut off everyone that isn't willing to install Briar, idk lol. It isn't like if I was gonna share truly sensitive data that I would encrypt myself first, I wouldn't trust any 3rd party service to so that for me. I just think all this is blown up now because he did another stupid and admittedly slimy looking thing, but 03:49:13 that thing doesn't appear to me to have any real impact on the technical capabilities of the Signal protocol. When the terries start dropping and it comes out Signal gave em up, everyone can just say told ya I guess. Meantime I'm on Signal and Threema, holla at me lol 03:49:13 or loupic 03:49:27 whats a tina 03:49:38 u'll learn 03:49:48 nioc: I'm sure the data would still be collected even if you don't use MobileCoin. There's no benefit in writing the application so it selectively lets you off the hook. 03:49:52 remember google "don't be evil". RIP 03:50:00 That'd be more work than just having it do the same thing to everyone. 03:50:23 "I trust Signal because it�s well built, but more importantly, because of how it�s built: open source, peer reviewed, and funded entirely by grants and donations. A refreshing model for how critical services should be built."" 03:50:35 I just chatted with a person on the other side of the world living in an authoritarian country using signal, I got them to switch from whatsapp not long ago 03:50:38 diverter[m]: I don't cut off everyone who doesn't use briar. I just don't know people I can't contact in other ways who matter enough to bother keeping them on Signal. 03:50:39 that comes from the highest criminal of the twatter mafia 03:50:39 louipc: more like "normie" from comp/quant/retail trader land 03:50:52 aka dorsey 03:51:05 but thatcherified 03:51:35 nioc: Signal is better than WhatsApp. 03:51:41 (as far as I know) 03:51:53 twatter, an NSA cesspool that censors people left and right. Dorsey should nuke his own shitty website if he want decent 'critical services'. 03:51:55 Myself, I'm up to like 91% of all text are E2EE now on my normie phone, so to me I'll take that all day. 03:52:03 diverter[m]: u gonna sklounst dem terries 03:52:18 all i member from google is: "uses way more ram then any other 'web-app' and we change the UX depending on your network connection" 03:52:28 real good design in their stuff 03:52:41 98% of my text messaging is on better-secured systems than Signal, these days, anyway. 03:52:47 Signal is probably about 1%. 03:53:09 🤣🤣🤣 Somebody got it 😂😂😂 03:53:40 The last 1% is cleartext SMS. 03:54:01 (there's a rounding error's worth of other smartphone messaging application stuff) 03:54:11 if the feds want you they got you 03:54:19 mostly 03:54:20 forget about hiding 03:54:42 The key is mostly to avoid leaving tracks that make the feds decide they want you. 03:54:48 anyway, it's 'refreshing' to see the same old excuses, bullshit about 'repressive regimes' and the like. 03:54:53 If you're doing enough to attract attention from the FBI you're probably doing enough where encryption isn't going to hide everything you're doing 03:54:59 apotheon: they got you anyway 03:55:09 but its nice/fun to at least try 03:55:11 louipc: I don't think you get my point. 03:55:36 The feds don't have me in their hands right now. If they decided I was a tasty target, it'd be pretty damned difficult to avoid getting gotten, though. 03:55:40 and the trying is important to the sluggish advancement of civil liberties 03:55:48 . . . which is why it's beneficial to avoid leaving the kinda tracks that make them want you. 03:56:09 If you're dealing in a space where you're worried about feds at least don't be the low hanging fruit 03:56:20 Notice all the DNM vendors getting caught all make dumb ass mistakes 03:56:24 tru 03:56:24 Low hanging fruit 03:56:32 are you using a hard to trace cryptocurrency whose name starts with M? Oops, you're more than likely to be 'attracting attention' 03:56:52 Not really 03:56:57 not really 03:57:05 Feds are so big if you're small time you're likely to fly under the radar 03:57:14 It takes a little more than being in an IRC channel and taking donations for a nonprofit association. 03:57:15 if youre using it to buy nerfballs youre fine 03:57:23 That too 03:57:39 If you're just interested in Monero and not doing anything illegal I don't think the feds really care 03:57:46 lawl 03:57:55 the way people lie to themselves 03:57:56 aaaaaaaaaaaa: unless you're a good connection to get to the next person 03:58:13 Lol you think you have an FBI file for hanging out in the Monero IRC 03:58:13 FBI? Morono protects me. 03:58:22 as2333: I'm not sure what you think is happening here. Do you expect that everyone in this channel is about to get snatched up and taken away? 03:58:55 FBI rarely even looks into crimes (unrelated to drugs) if its not over 1m 03:59:10 this is why slang 03:59:13 apotheon, what's happening here is that you have the typical 'people' pretending they don't live in a surveillance state and saying 'I obey my masters, they won't get me". 03:59:28 and non-serious trolling only 03:59:48 Well im talking specifically about getting arrested 04:00:01 Surveillance lol yeah no shit 04:00:36 as2333: I'm not sure they're all obeying the masters. 04:00:55 as2333: i dont think anyone said anything to that effect 04:01:07 "If you're just interested in Monero and not doing anything illegal" 04:01:08 Everyone's getting swept up in mass surveillance dragnets, of course. 04:01:19 'not doing anything illegal' 04:01:23 get the masks on them 04:01:23 The question is whether you stand out enough for feds to hammer you flat. 04:01:30 trail the bots with the masks on them 04:01:34 * train the bots with the masks on them 04:01:47 Yeah, if you're not doing anything illegal then nobody is going to spend the resources to investigate you 04:01:47 as2333: nobody said nerfball buyers and sellers are not being surveilled 04:01:52 as2333: Sometimes people say imprecise things. I'm not sure that wasn't just imprecise. 04:02:08 just that they are not on the high priority list of people to be vanned 04:02:13 Is your data being tracked, stored, and accessed at will? Absolutely 04:02:25 Literally speaking, we're all doing something illegal pretty much all the time. There are so many laws out there it's effectively possible to not break the law every day. 04:02:46 look at all the people interested in Monero getting arrested 04:02:52 . . . but then, maybe someone really thinks "I'm not doing anything illegal." 04:03:28 I don't know what's actually inside people's heads when they say that. I tend to suspect that people who are aware enough to have heard of Monero are more likely to know they aren't *literally* 100% law-abiding people. 04:03:37 yea they shoulda locked up fluffy at least 04:03:49 every generation of my family has been on a list since coming to the usa, that's as far as it went 04:04:10 The biggest crimes fluffypony ever committed were probably crimes of taste. 04:04:19 lmao 04:04:25 fluffypony: I kid! You're great. 04:04:32 he tasted too many wines? 04:04:40 so many 04:04:41 maybe 04:04:45 whines 04:04:50 no, that's not right 04:05:01 poor taste: guilty as charged lol 04:05:08 So what's the conclusion here 04:05:18 Feds are waiting to arrest all of us 04:05:21 The biggest crime fluffypony ever committed might be using Google's services framework in the MyMonero Android application. 04:05:36 https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intelligence-laundering 04:05:46 . . . unless that wasn't fluffypony. 04:05:49 aaaaaaaaaaaa: yea but they have limited resources 04:06:25 The world keeps manufacturing lawbreakers faster than the feds can get down the list to low-value targets like me. 04:06:41 the world? 04:06:54 the world 04:07:03 as in: people being born 04:07:13 the feds keep manufacturing criminals with increased number of ridiculous laws and regulations 04:07:20 apotheon, that's why everything is getting automated. 04:07:25 That's not the feds. That's legislators. 04:07:44 apotheon: that's not the point really. You are right that the feds do not care about you. Until they do for some unrelated reason, then they go to their achieves and blackmail you with whatever little thing they can 04:07:48 samediff 04:07:49 Thats how this works 04:07:50 as2333: Yeah, we'll have to burn that bridge when we come to it. 04:08:01 Mumuks[m]: indeed 04:08:12 wanna hear something stupid 04:08:14 Mumuks[m]: . . . but there are things one can't change. 04:08:24 the wef funds "the commons project" 04:08:27 TCP 04:08:32 wat idiots 04:08:47 Mumuks[m]: . . . and the likelihood of being that person while being a low-value target is at least very low, so I don't have to commit suicide to try to avoid it. 04:08:47 apotheon: sure, but there is a lot of things people could change, they are just lazy about it 04:09:00 And I dont mean politically, I mean in the day to day 04:09:03 anyway. just get busy 04:09:05 Mumuks[m]: Give me examples. 04:09:20 Stop using cloud services f.e. 04:09:20 (so I know what you mean) 04:09:30 Yeah, I cut back on that significantly. 04:09:33 Stop using centralized social media 04:09:43 I mean . . . all our messages are on Freenode, so there's that. 04:09:48 stop consuming mainstream media 04:10:04 Stop being a pleb 04:10:12 I'm pretty atypical in some very low-profile ways, so I'm safer than most that way. 04:10:19 and start using 🧶 04:10:23 like nitter 04:10:41 nitter is just twitter 04:10:46 Try to use cash or monero mainly 04:10:52 ur mum is just hawt 04:10:59 really should divorce from twitter entirely 04:11:13 Twatter is stupid 04:11:38 Mumuks[m]: If you have a good list of specific changes to make, let me know, but so far you're talking about stuff I already, or already-mostly do. 04:11:40 just twatsin 04:11:58 apotheon: good for you then 04:12:14 s/mostly/mostly,/ 04:12:21 Hopefully more people will follow, because we need numbers 04:12:27 yeah 04:12:32 they will 04:12:36 just stop being so serious 04:12:39 it requires a huge education and culture fit 04:12:45 and show them the way to being cooler then they are 04:12:52 they all want freedom 04:12:56 just show them 04:12:57 unfortunately most govt have the keys to education 04:12:59 It's easier to disappear into a crowd when the crowd is huge. That's a basic principle behind how Monero protects privacy, as I understand it, anyway. 04:13:04 *culture change 04:13:23 Mumuks[m]: Are you familiar with agorism and second realm strategy? 04:14:26 Culture can be changed, but it requires changing minds, which (to have much chance of success doing it intentionally) requires changing behavior so people will self-justify by changing their conscious beliefs. 04:14:30 Im just happy I got a laptop with enough hd space to sync my own node and use the cli 04:15:04 Changing behavior mostly requires giving people convenience to follow -- basically just playing into their economic values, whether they realize they have them or not. 04:15:09 culture is the key 04:15:22 apotheon: not sure if y'all noticed but the last 3 months retail traders been taking on wall street 04:15:30 there's definitely a culture change under way 04:15:43 pump the foss 04:15:43 . . . so, to change the world, start by offering goods and services (for money, for free, for whatever) that will alter people's behavior so that they have to change their beliefs to self-justify that behavior. 04:15:49 Yes 04:16:11 😂😂😂 gonna rewatch that now, that one had me dying. lord_fomo I was ranting earlier, but yes. Signal was given a $50 million loan (interest free) by Brian Acton (as of 2018, it is $105 million) to be able to make it a non-profit. It is to be paid back by 2068. It is unsecured so he doesn't own anything, but it was not a donation by any stretch. Again I'm not trying to slande 04:16:11 Brian or Signal, but just bring light to why they don't allow username sign ups and mandatory require you give up your phone number. They are a great company, but the Mobile Coin crap when no one was asking for it is a bit odd. Moxie was a paid advisor to Mobile Coin.... Even though Moxie told Wired he doesn't own any Mobile Coin, it makes it very difficult to say he doesn't have a financial interest in the coin increasing in 04:16:11 value, or one of his buddies has a shit ton of it. 04:16:14 Mumuks[m]: Cool, then. Have you read An Agorist Primer and Second Realm: Book On Strategy? 04:16:48 I pretty much recommend *everybody* read them both, in that order. Overall, I think Second Realm is more important than Agorist Primer, but they're both short, and Agorist Primer is great prep for Second Realm. 04:17:00 entry1: yah it's the same old charly shit 04:17:06 maybe moxie is tainted now too 04:17:09 (and mostly ignore what Second Realm says about agorism; I think of Second Realm as a refinement of agorism rather than distinct from it) 04:17:10 that's too bad if so 04:17:54 I read the original agorist manifesto and other stuff back then. I do not think I've read these ones, but I agree with what you are saying about convenience and self justification 04:17:57 The guy who owns mobile coin or the company behind it said it was to make money for the signal foundation 04:18:03 He said it today in an AMA 04:18:30 entry1: Moxie may not own any MobileCoin, but his company got a shit ton of it, apparently, and that means his equity in the company is worth more. 04:18:40 entry1: you sounding kinda froggy 04:18:45 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246 04:18:51 Yep, who knows. They are extremely smart individuals, but they underestimate how dumb they think evedhond else is. 04:18:54 "1) I started MobileCoin to fund Signal. That’s it." 04:19:13 * Yep, who knows. They are extremely smart individuals, but they underestimate how dumb they think everyone else is. 04:19:18 So obviously the signal foundation or someone involved owns a significant amount of mobile coin 04:19:33 Also this is hilarious: 04:19:35 "2) MobileCoin Inc. intends to maintain an extreme minority of the coins once the dust settles." 04:19:45 they shoulda just invested in dogecoin problemsolved 04:19:50 "Once we pump it up and dump it we plan to not buy back in" 04:20:30 aaaaaaaaaaaa: yep, that seems to be the reasonable interpretation 04:21:16 I should buy fifty bucks of every brand new cryptoshitcoin when it's worth a penny, then sit on it for a year and sell it. 04:21:24 I'll probably break even at least. 04:21:44 ya'll missing this viagram moment 04:21:44 That's the combat seat Jonathon Livingston Seigel 04:21:45 * ya'll missing this viagra moment 04:21:59 The gravy train along those lines probably won't last long, though, because it's hard to believe the hype machine won't go slightly negative overall within a decade. 04:22:02 apotheon: buy turtle coin 04:22:10 Is that real? 04:22:14 bruh 04:22:19 it credits old man xmr 04:22:26 speaking of which 04:22:31 someone got it up this evening 04:23:45 those turtles guis are hillarious 04:23:47 all they do is shit talk 04:23:49 #turtle-traders:matrix.org 04:24:04 so they have mobilecoin-v for voice-calls, mobilecoin-t for text messages. mobilecoin-p for pictures...from a to z and more. 04:24:59 apotheon: I've downloaded the two books 04:25:38 they should also issue different coins for different phone models and different case color 04:26:01 Mumuks[m]: cool 04:26:21 * lord_fomo[m] uploaded an image: (66KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/CQryAaPPJJyxcXxUVPNjqMtp/screenshot-2021-04-08_00-25-52.png > 04:26:27 viagra workin 04:28:31 👴 xmr getting it up tonitez 04:30:10 I want to buy more xmr 04:31:00 Like a lot more 04:31:45 the fomo is real 04:33:25 Ok im getting $1500 more 04:33:34 I bought $1200 yesterday 04:33:40 I want to just convert all my fiat to xmr 04:33:44 But I have bills and shit 04:39:20 buy them all eh 04:43:17 also check out some of the work by smuggler and braun. m8s of mine, have a small but good community. https://anarplex.net/ 04:53:33 Bill48105: are u for sale 04:53:53 also check out some of the work by smuggler and braun. m8s of mine, have a small but good community. https://anarplex.net/ <-- only btc donations? sigh 04:54:41 The more things change, the more they stay the same 04:55:15 the reading is interesting. their site hasn't been updated recently. smuggler's main site does accept monero http://opaque.link/ 04:55:48 phone[m]: Yeah, Smuggler's awesome. Give him Monero. 04:55:54 phone[m]: what's their book's name? 04:56:05 Second Realm: Book On Strategy 04:56:32 https://anarplex.net/hosted/files/secondrealm/secondrealm.html 04:56:38 phone[m]: I'm quite familiar with the site, though I'm not a fan of web forum stuff, so I tend to stick to IRC. 04:57:04 phone[m]: Frank seems cool too, but I haven't talked with him as much. 04:57:09 Oh I see, I thought they wrote something other than the two books reced by apotheon 04:57:24 An Agorist Primer was written by SEK3, not them. 04:57:35 i wasn't a fan of forums myself. but the irc can be interesting. 04:57:41 SEK3 being deceased now, so not easy to have a conversation with him . . . 04:57:46 yes, I found out about that through libgen 04:58:12 phone[m]: If you're in the channel, you should check the list of people in there. You might see a name you recognize from here. 04:59:16 indeed. 04:59:35 (and feel free to say hi) 05:01:08 would have been a good conversation. he passed way too young 05:01:29 btw, Stephen Diehl, the OP of the article posted on hackernews, is very bearish on crypto 05:02:17 My current opinion is that his far left leanings bias him to not value the benefits of cryptocurrency, and overstate its problems. 05:03:08 Does anyone else have a better understanding about him? 05:05:42 Well . . . I'm off for a bit. Ta. 05:06:33 off your rocker 05:08:41 off to get investigate the meaning of life and getting monerod to behave properly behind traefik. 05:08:50 * off to get investigate the meaning of life and getting monerod container to behave properly behind traefik. 05:08:59 * off to investigate the meaning of life and getting monerod container to behave properly behind traefik. 05:11:20 What article? 05:22:13 Mumuks[m]: https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/signal.html 05:22:44 this article is what this link (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26726246) discusses, which started the discussion about mobilecoin, crypto, and Moxie 06:12:19 hi 06:20:15 wut up gangster gerbil 06:20:19 too late 07:07:23 tfw you say hi on #monero and no one answers in under a minute :( 07:34:28 .tip PapuaHardyNet 0.0001 07:34:28 hmmp tipped 0.0001 XMR (≈$0.03) to PapuaHardyNet [f38cd55b] 07:47:52 Hi 07:57:20 Howard Chu is a high IQ scholar, he has more Google images with a violin than Sting with a guitar, he singlehandely saved NASA from doom. Why can't the saviour of NASA save Monero? 07:58:13 actual talking in otc today! 08:16:37 Hey sistas! We have a bridge from matrix to telegram in the spanish monero community and get some spam in the matrix side from time to time (nothing too annoying). I could look a bit but im sure our big brothers in the english chat can share some good info on how to get rid of it. 08:16:55 The spam is telegram messages that the bot erase only in the telegram side 08:18:22 I have the same issue... for now I delete and ban manually 08:19:58 The "Element Android" room has a bot called "Abuse Management" which will cleanup/ban whoever they point it to, but it's still manual 08:22:05 tried compiling xmrig on openbsd got this error related to virtual memory: https://pastebin.com/wiEH70x7 08:23:00 for mining monero i mean 08:42:19 endor00: ok, thanks, yeah i do it manually and its not a problem 08:50:06 could not compile xmrig (monero mining software) on openbsd. the error : https://pastebin.com/wiEH70x7 08:57:18 sistas? Is that a slang for "sisters"? 08:57:39 I don't know spanish btw raas[m] 08:58:07 cd build; cmake .. 08:58:11 *run 09:00:33 I hope so. I'm trying to enter the room with a classy attitude. 09:01:52 well, you were classy, aside from that inscrutable term :P 09:03:34 😆 09:10:59 Hello folks, please join #monero-events if you're interested in participating or advising the Monero Village at Defcon 29. 09:16:27 has anyone bought monero using changenow using a debit card? is there any KYC? 09:32:22 xmrig compiled with -DMAP_POPULATE=0 -DMAP_HUGETLB=0 but it refuses to run (segmentation fault) and dumps core in openbsd 10:16:00 hi 10:16:58 I'm happy to finally announce Haveno! The Monero-based DEX for trading XMR for fiat and cryptocurrencies! (PoC) 10:17:02 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mmonx5/im_happy_to_announce_haveno_the_monerobased_dex/? 10:18:15 post is awaiting mod approval 10:19:05 yeah, kinda hype killer :P Waiting for a mod 10:19:55 xmr.is ded :( 10:20:02 https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mmeeud/important_dont_use_xmris_they_seem_to_have_exit scammed 10:31:25 atomic swaps can't come soon enough 10:36:26 Post deleted. If a reddit mod comes online, please ping me 10:36:56 mechanic41turk[m: agreed 10:37:15 trustless trading is becoming more required 12:11:49 https://www.investing.com/news/cryptocurrency-news/paypal-ceo-bitcoin-could-be-a-chinese-weapon-2469076 12:11:51 damp eet 12:11:59 ni haooooooooooooo 12:12:00 need it stat 12:12:11 yes doctor 12:52:26 TLDR: "Bitcoin may make the USD no longer the reserve currency so we won't be able to bomb brown people overseas and give massive corporate bailouts and subsidies and buy votes through welfare" 12:52:53 yah but use your head 12:52:54 why would that stop the us gov from being a dick 12:53:14 US ain't taking btc as payment fer gunz 12:53:28 which is really why they're the reser curr 12:54:25 gunz, markets, liquidity 12:55:01 why you think china and friends doing this alt-war shit 12:55:10 .val 0.007963 xmr 12:55:10 somethingUniqueR: ≈$2.1405 • ≈ value of: 0.007963 XMR • Source: cmc/ccc/altm 12:55:20 It's more about the world having to purchase oil using usd than guns 12:55:26 k 12:55:53 but again that's just markets 12:55:55 indices 12:56:00 commodity indexes 12:56:22 but even if those blow up 12:56:26 they still gots the gunz 12:57:06 Yes, the usd is propped up by international oil trade and our massive military forcing other countries to use usd to buy and sell oil. Taking other currencies is not good for your health if you're some leader in the middle east 12:57:32 what do leaders do with all the oil money 12:57:37 I had a shitload but tragically lost em and my hardware wallets in a boating accident 12:57:42 🤔 12:57:45 Give it to their friends 12:57:50 lol 12:57:51 lord_fomo[m]: retain their power, most importantly 12:57:52 no 12:57:54 they buy gunz 12:58:21 like all things actually important 12:58:30 obv 12:58:33 noone talks about this being the US's main business since wwII 12:58:38 guns help leaders retain power 12:58:39 Well yeah the USD has power as reserve, because we force countries to use it for oil, which we can do because we have the biggest military, which we do because we stole the world's gold in 1971 12:58:58 if you got goldz 12:59:02 and the other guys got gunz 12:59:07 then he's gonna have goldz too 12:59:11 ur goldz 12:59:12 didnt a lot of the world's gold leave the USA in the 60s and 70s 12:59:20 other nations bought it 12:59:32 gold is just an idea 12:59:39 that's why crypto is important 12:59:44 as long as we have power and puters 12:59:46 gold is dumb 13:00:30 We have the biggest military because all the countries gave us their gold after ww2 to use the usd as a reserve currency then in 1971 we stopped allowing other countries to exchange usd for their gold back. We became insanely wealthy printing money because it was already used as the reserve and we had the majority of gold and we spend a shitload on the military making the us bigger than the next 10 combined 13:00:32 crypto is also an idea 13:01:18 Crypto could replace gold potentially, at least partially, so it's a threat to the reserve 13:01:49 The history behind how the us fucked over the rest of the world and made them use usd is very interesting 13:02:13 yes which is why it takes gold 13:02:33 'takes'? 13:02:35 as long as we have power, puters, smart people not running from cannibals / zombies 13:02:52 rock paper scissors bruh 13:03:08 hrmmmmmmmm 13:03:12 paper 13:03:28 scypto is da ✂️ 13:03:34 * $crypto is da ✂️ 13:03:55 im sure i wouldve lost regardless of what i pick 13:03:57 like brexit 13:04:00 * $crypto is da paper 13:04:03 ur right 13:04:11 what's scissor 13:04:33 if we insist gold = rock 😂 13:04:39 ✂️ 13:04:53 ahhh gunz 13:05:02 gunz, gold, crypto 13:05:07 gold takes gunz 13:05:20 gunz take crypto 13:05:21 nah 13:05:23 need more options 13:07:53 the US and to a certain extend their dog in europe (UK) convinced other nations to send them their gold for safe keeping. then when they came to audit their stocks the US showd them a room full of gold and said "this is your gold" and those idiots believed it 13:08:11 woof woof 13:08:22 topkek 13:08:52 charolastra: the US must be good at painting rocks 13:09:44 and in every war where the US conquered the capital city, suddently unmarked planes landed, unmarked troups jumped out and raided the local central bank 13:10:30 orly_owl: no, you just need to show every "client" the same room. it's like inverse fractional banking, only with gold 13:10:56 thats just rich people emptying their safe deposit boxes 13:11:04 ah of course 13:11:12 just keep some gold and show everyone, cheaper 13:11:37 also google "iraq gold stolen" for some fun pics 13:12:08 i want there to a a skit show of them loading gold into the plane 13:12:55 i was gonna say 13:13:03 gold is real in the sense the CBs trade with it 13:13:06 but they have vaults 13:13:10 most peeps don't 13:13:13 yakety sax optional 13:13:16 so vaults helps with gunz 13:13:31 oh Central Banks, thought it was Cucked Bitches 13:13:34 except, clearly not when all the gunz show up 😂 13:13:44 I'm happy to announce Haveno: The Monero based DEX for trading XMR for fiat and cryptocurrencies! (PoC): https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mmrchk/im_happy_to_announce_haveno_the_monero_based_dex/ 13:13:47 (second try) 13:13:53 there are private vaults that hold gold, not just central banks 13:15:14 until they don't anymore. https://twitter.com/sc13riz/status/1031928065595719680/photo/1 13:15:18 thonkang 13:15:26 charolastra: bruh use nitter 13:16:23 sorrey 13:16:31 stawp plebbin 13:18:04 https://nitter.dark.fail/sc13riz/status/1031928065595719680 13:18:59 I saw this Marky Mark movie 13:24:55 so haveno is scam er wut 13:25:34 just assume it is 13:25:52 the repo seems to be typical of a 'small time project by good guy developer' 13:25:59 so.. at least there's that 13:26:07 nothing wrong with that 13:26:16 yes, that's a good thing 13:26:19 link it 13:26:21 GH? 13:26:23 but assuming the worst until 'proven' otherwise seems reasonable 13:26:25 yes GH 13:26:34 https://github.com/haveno-dex/haveno 13:26:38 there you go 13:26:46 thanks 13:27:01 > Haveno is a fork of Bisq, the Bitcoin based decentralized exchange. We believe Bisq is not enough for Monero users, which badly need a private way to exchange Monero for other (crypto)currencies. 13:27:01 you're welcome 13:27:04 some healthy skepticism. Good to see :) 13:27:15 seems like this guy should read that issue 13:27:27 > At the moment Haveno is only a Proof of Concept. It's already possible to initiate a crypto <-> XMR trade, but the platform still needs a lot of work before being available for public use. 13:27:46 ugh that means it's java doesn't it 13:28:07 😂 13:28:07 not sure why you'd fork instead of just work on that issue 13:28:13 i'm gonna bish at him 13:34:28 wouldnt it be easier to just add more monero support to bisq 13:35:31 that's an odd approach 13:35:38 what is? 13:35:40 all of the liquidity is in Bisq 13:35:44 orly_owl: forking it 13:35:48 sorry should have been clear 13:35:48 ah, yeah 13:35:53 np :) 13:36:06 idk i guess some people always want to do their own thing 13:38:25 fluffypony: I don't see the oddity. I've been pushing Bisq to add a better Monero integration for a long time, but beside wasting dev resources on and integration that was never implemented 13:38:58 Bisq is clunky, buggy, not user friendly and based on Bitcoin, which makes it not private and expensive 13:39:17 i really wish they'd move away from java too 13:39:37 yeah this ^^ 13:39:41 yeah, that's something we are considering as well. 13:39:52 better to take the concept and reimplement imho 13:39:55 too much tech debt 13:40:03 it makes bisq so fucking slow 13:43:21 fluffypony: we wanted to have a PoC ready as soon as possible. We considered the resources we had and planned accordingly. All Haveno as you see it has been build by woodser only, with me testing afterwards. 13:43:34 got it 13:43:37 we hope that going public with a poc will make people interested in the project and will allow us to onboard devs 13:44:17 and build on that 13:46:20 we're looking at keeping the java backend (stripped of anything not needed and optimizing performance) and using electrum-java for the frontend 13:49:23 woodser: neat 13:53:40 ErCiccione9: PoC platform on a chip? 13:56:13 Proof Of Concept 13:56:14 Very cool 13:56:16 ^ 13:56:23 ah ty 13:56:28 never keep the javascript 13:56:36 *java 13:56:38 fml 13:59:58 ErCiccione9: afaik bisq has its own coin 14:00:12 I assume haveno will use xmr or btc as currency? 14:00:25 they use a token. A colored bitcoin 14:00:29 xmr base currency yes 14:00:37 we don't use tokens 14:00:41 ok good :) 14:00:46 it's based on multisig 14:03:30 bisq's token is BSQ 14:13:04 fluffypony: yah i bished at him 14:13:52 doesn't need a fork of a shit code base that's for sure 14:13:59 didn't we just have a buncha drama bout that 😂 14:14:52 oh wait 14:15:08 ErCiccione: and woodser are haveno devs? 14:15:36 zig 14:15:48 or nim 14:15:53 doo eeet 14:20:14 monero will benefit from a DeX with atomic swaps, the programming language used is kinda secondary 14:20:51 price go up? 14:21:10 orly_owl: wrong channel :P 14:21:27 oh woops 14:21:41 * orly_owl joins #annoyingpeople 14:22:09 * moneromooo moves a bit to make space for orly_owl 14:22:14 ty 14:22:34 what up mooo 14:23:19 I just fixed a bug! yay! 14:23:44 grats but how did you get his little legs apart to snip snip 14:24:05 Let me show you... 14:24:12 rekt 14:25:45 o_____0 14:25:50 > the programming language used is kinda secondary 14:25:50 selsta depends if you want new contributors 14:26:06 TempleOS accepted no patches 14:26:07 so i'd say that's not true 14:26:24 Java is certainly more popular than zig or nim, unless you were trolling :P 14:26:45 more popular != getting new contribs to monero 14:26:54 which clearly isn't written in java nor affiliated with that community 14:27:06 so not trolling selsta 14:27:13 Haveno looks nice 👍🏼 good Job guys @ErCiccione 14:27:13 Bullish on Monero 😎 14:27:40 * lord_fomo[m] uploaded an image: (19KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/ezEIfcouYgnZePWqyasZyPgP/screenshot-2021-04-08_10-27-22.png > 14:34:18 lord_fomo: We considered moving away from Java, but we basically had no resources, we made the choice that was a good compromise. Nothing is set in stone btw. 14:35:03 yah i get it fo sho 14:35:17 i guess if it was me i woulda tried to put up a patch to bisq 14:35:24 and then try to get their interest 14:35:28 which = resources 14:35:43 but like, you do you 14:35:53 if the codebase needs a serious overhaul and they're bein lame 14:35:55 i've been trying that for quite some time 14:35:56 then forkz away 14:36:12 but i think if ur gonna do that 14:36:16 be transparent about it 14:36:21 so you light a fire under their asses 14:37:04 also never hurts to have allies who already know the codebase ur trying to rework 😉 14:39:25 We are being very transparent. This is not a malicious fork. We acknowledge their work, but we decided to go a different way. They don't want to prioritize monero even if it's used by the vast majority of their users? I can try to persuade them and work toward having a better xmr support. if that fails, we have to split ways. 14:41:23 > We are being very transparent. This is not a malicious fork. 14:41:23 no not at all what i meant 14:41:41 i just looked at repo initially and didn't realize it was bisq 14:41:55 and i think explaining you've already tried is something worth noting 14:42:21 > We acknowledge and thank Bisq for their efforts, but we think the Monero community needs a native, private way to exchange XMR for other currencies without passing through Bitcoin first and Haveno is here to fill that gap! We commit to contribute back to Bisq when possible. 14:42:31 like that's pretty much your justification 14:42:45 technical reasons are always good 😉 14:44:00 anyway just giving feedback as an outside observer 14:45:05 For a community that prides itself on manipulating people, you can't manage a single guy that spends most of his time in his underpants :D 14:45:49 "Spam is off topic on freenode" mhm 14:45:58 woa 14:46:07 like everyone i work with is in underpants right now 14:46:20 lord_fomo[m]: i thought you were more of a mumu guy 14:46:26 wat dat 14:46:29 gotta get dressed in the morning. self-respect 101 14:46:34 bruh 14:46:40 dont @ me 14:46:45 gotta do deadlifts in the morning 14:46:51 then check out ur quadz 14:46:56 in da undies 14:47:12 lord_fomo[m]: The muumuu or muʻumuʻu is a loose dress of Hawaiian origin that hangs from the shoulder and is like a cross between a shirt and a robe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muumuu 14:47:28 shiat 14:47:28 either way, put tape over your webcam 14:47:50 the joke here is that you are extremely fat 14:48:15 i think i get it 14:48:23 good 14:48:35 if only you got some exercise. so sad. 14:48:35 you should watch last man on earth 14:48:38 fat is in now 14:48:45 did he eat everyone else? 14:48:51 dawg 14:48:53 just watch it 14:48:56 no 14:49:08 give me a magnetlink and i will 14:49:24 it's will forte 14:49:26 it's gud 14:49:38 The Last Man on Earth (TV series), a 2015 American comedy television series 14:50:09 ye ur like phil 14:50:24 trying to go the "fat is bad route" 14:50:30 but you forgot bout personality bruh 14:50:35 the secret weapon 14:50:40 i dont give a hoot 14:50:54 then why'd you bring it up 14:51:35 comedic purposes 14:52:11 yah i was just sayin ur joke is dated 14:52:25 that's why noone is laughing 14:52:50 * orly_owl doesnt give a hoot 14:53:04 pwned 15:06:28 I want to exchange $1000 or so of Bitcoin for Monero without KYC. 15:06:34 What's the cheapest way to do this? 15:06:40 Does Bisq support Monero? 15:07:34 no 15:07:44 :( 15:08:03 yanmaani: put an offer on https://localmonero.co 15:08:23 fiat - bisq > btc (wasabi) -> non-KYC ex account -> xmr -> xmr wallet # 2 -> non-kyc account -> trade 15:08:44 bisq requires kyc? 15:08:50 no 15:09:03 then why cant he use bisq 15:09:04 but you gotta do kyc xfers on the fiat side afaiu 15:09:11 oh 15:09:18 bisq doesn't have xmr support 15:09:18 unless cash by mail 15:09:22 literally what was discussed all morning 15:09:25 ok 15:09:53 i only read the things i type 15:10:03 because im better than everyone else 15:10:53 crypto ATM with no KYC LTC -> XMR? 15:11:16 someone should make a repo / wiki with recipes for this 15:11:26 XM"> Gonna be taxed on the initial purchase and still requires BTC to LTC 15:11:30 it's honestly pretty frustrating to figure it all out on ur own 15:11:46 By taxed, I mean overcharged 15:11:46 like if you wanna go anon 15:12:04 https://bisq.wiki/Trading_Monero 15:12:43 taxed? you mean the fee? it's LTC -> XMR not BTC -> XMR 15:13:02 can still do btc to xmr directly on https://localmonero.co 15:13:53 .balance 15:13:53 yeswepump: • Your balance is: 0.0000077 XMR (≈0 USD) 15:14:22 what do you pump 15:14:31 gas? :) 15:14:34 BTC transaction speed is slow compared with LTC 15:14:49 lord_fomo[m]: I want to sell BTC and get XMR 15:14:54 ltc is much faster and cheaper than btc but what isn't 15:15:06 yanmaani: https://localmonero.co 15:15:15 there are many options for btc to monero 15:15:29 atomic swaps when 15:15:41 .soon 15:15:42 orly_owl: Your default coin is now set to XMR. Change with coins command. 15:15:42 orly_owl: ≈$0.0699 • ≈ value of: 1 SOON • Source: cmc/ccc/altm 15:15:47 hrmm 15:15:49 that narrows it eh 15:16:05 i have coins in here? 15:16:10 soon is a coin with market data so it triggers the market info 15:16:15 Going rate is 6% on ChangeNow through Cake Wallet. 15:16:22 that makes more sense 15:16:44 the bot looks for commands then known coins with market data then ignores 15:17:13 the . prefix triggers the process 15:17:40 entry1: that's awful 15:17:45 but yes in this case the bot does have soon coin 15:17:45 what do you mean going rate 15:18:10 He wants to do $1000 XBT to XMR, not $1000 to XMR 15:18:10 rough average fee? 15:18:43 oh 15:19:09 localmonero does it for ~2%, which seems reasonable 15:19:27 very reasonable imo 15:19:29 how long until we have cross-chain swaps for xmr? 15:19:44 about that long 15:20:10 sometime this year is my prediction 15:20:39 crypto ATM 10% fee sometimes less 15:21:34 wanted to buy one and pocket the fee 15:22:05 whats stopping you 15:22:17 just use KYC ex 15:22:25 then use multiple xmr wallets if you want anon 15:22:42 but i mean orig amount will be associated with you 15:22:48 lord_fomo[m]: that's stupid, I don't want to KYC 15:22:55 I'll associate the bitcoins with my real identity 15:22:59 which is what I do not want 15:23:00 well then wait for atomic swaps 15:23:14 the btc is not tied to id? 15:23:16 right now? 15:23:20 you a miner? 15:23:29 I wonder how many will be managing two stacks of BTC - one KYC'ed stack and one "anon" stack 15:24:02 some ATMs sell XMR directly 15:24:08 not it's not 15:24:17 the whole point of this shit is no middle men 15:24:23 any blockchain besides XMR is public 15:24:38 tumble it all you want it wont hide the transaction 15:25:01 don't see why I can't just use bisq 15:25:10 > Monero (XMR) is one of the most active markets on Bisq 15:25:14 how does it not support it 15:26:27 bisq is good 15:27:18 but with crypto ATM you just show the QR code of the wallet and input cash and boom 15:27:35 fees are high though 15:27:56 so maybe buy an ATM with friends 15:28:00 and split the fee proceeds 15:28:13 I don't want to pay absurd fees 15:28:26 Then why do you have BTC? 15:28:30 * Inge- ducks 15:28:33 no I have no intention of buying an ATM, I just want to sell BTC for XMR 15:28:47 quack! 15:28:48 atomic swap 15:28:49 Inge-: cause some people insisted in paying me in it 15:28:59 bisq / atomic swaps sounds like good bets? 15:29:01 chile09[m]: Do they exist yet? 15:29:06 You can do a 6% fee without KYC. Probably your best bet ATM or use localmonero 15:29:17 they are developing atomic swaps for XMR right now 15:29:24 * You can do a 6% fee without KYC. Probably your best bet at the moment or use localmonero 15:29:28 COMIT testnet 15:29:50 yes, localmonero seems like a good deal. Considering the site takes 1% fee, you probably can't do much better than that 15:29:57 you can swap with atomic wallet but then they freeze all you crypto 15:30:02 your* 15:30:44 You won't be able to do 6% most likely on localmonero unless you directly contact a seller 15:31:06 why dont sellers just put lower prices on the site 15:32:19 chile09[m]: Who? I want to dump my bitcoins, if they get frozen after that that's someone else's problem 15:32:46 atomic wallet is such a misnomer 15:32:53 entry1: I mean, there's open offers right now of ~2% 15:33:13 more radioactive than atomic eh 15:33:27 3.5% spread 15:34:46 no I mean when I tested the atomic swap they froze all transactions 15:34:55 all the quoted fees are before network fees? 15:34:59 So XMR can't be sent to anywhere 15:36:29 not worth much if it can't be moved eh 15:38:35 what does this mean? 15:38:37 https://github.com/comit-network/xmr-btc-swap/tree/master/docs/asb 15:38:49 Bill48105: those are the quoted prices. Each side pays their own tx fees, I presume 15:39:51 I deliver to them BTC X, they send me XMR Y. I pay BTC-side tx fees, they pay XMR-side tx fees (none, it's a localmonero internal xfer) 15:42:50 https://blog.turtlecoin.lol/ 15:43:02 i think turtle is based on monero 15:43:07 but just started reading about it 15:44:11 https://github.com/turtlecoin/turtlecoin#a-note-for-contributing-developers 15:44:11 turtle lol 15:44:18 yeah it's what i figured on fees but doesn't hurt to ask 15:44:19 yah it's lulz 15:44:35 i mean if you use coinswap it's all inclusive 15:45:00 but dont recall if they support monero 15:45:54 btw 15:45:57 hawt feed 15:45:58 http://www.cryptonewswire.com/ 15:46:58 https://nitter.dark.fail/CryptoNewswire 15:49:59 does tradeogre allow tor? 15:51:54 you could try but its alpha 15:52:27 https://www.coindesk.com/citi-completes-cross-border-payments-pilot-using-eosio-based-lacchain 15:52:42 > Funds were deposited in dollars in a Citi account, tokenized and transferred using digital wallets before being transferred into Dominican pesos at an exchange rate set by Citi. 15:52:50 suitz are gettin on board 15:53:51 Dominican pesos?! 15:58:54 https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/1126.pdf 15:59:03 cross the chain dudes 16:10:11 chile09[m]: this is not yet possible 16:10:23 https://github.com/haveno-dex/haveno 16:10:30 Why aren't the bisq devs taking initiative and implementing more XMR pairs themselves? 16:10:43 Good on these devs for doing this 16:11:53 prolly full of bitcoin folks 16:14:08 Bisq basically rejected an XMR integration 1.5-2 years ago -> https://github.com/bisq-network/proposals/issues/110 16:15:52 yeah exactly. i think they were willing to show support by having it listed as a btc pair, but when it comes to fully integrated .... 16:16:08 as a base currency.... 16:16:30 Are there any good (KYC) XMR <-> fiat exchanges? 16:16:43 I suppose localmonero.co would do the trick 16:17:42 Are you in the US? 16:23:10 yanmaani: Kraken 16:23:22 yanmaani: kraken for kyc xmr <> fiat 16:29:33 yanmaani: Do you want KYC or non-KYC? 16:29:45 yanmaani: . . . 'cause I don't see how localmonero.co is KYC. 16:30:18 Sellers may ask for KYC 16:30:20 ^ apotheon 16:30:35 I guess that's a good point. 16:30:48 I'll just move along, then. 16:34:18 You can buy LTC and swap it for XMR using something like changenow.io 16:34:34 Buy the LTC via a KYC exchange 16:42:21 Why did I get banned from #monero-pools 16:42:24 I was idling overnight 16:42:32 You have been kicked from #monero-pools by asymptotically 16:43:50 Maybe there's a very low tolerance there for dropping and rejoining . . . ? 16:43:57 I dunno. 16:44:08 Weird 16:44:16 I thought it was just a kick but im banned lol 16:45:33 yeah i'd guess the drops. you are like ping pong sally over here 24x7 16:45:43 I suppose you could try sending the person a private message asking why. 16:45:47 right on queue lol 16:45:51 or you could drop off just as I say that 16:46:16 It might not even have ended up with a kickban if the username wasn't so obnoxious. 16:46:18 mid sentence helping & another drop 16:46:35 joindropjoindropjoindrop probably ends up looking like constant screaming. 16:46:46 speak of the devil 16:46:50 so 16:46:54 trying again 16:46:59 yeah i'd guess the drops. you are like ping pong sally over here 24x7 16:47:13 It might not even have ended up with a kickban if the username wasn't so obnoxious. 16:47:17 joindropjoindropjoindrop probably ends up looking like constant screaming. 16:47:43 here go spamming 100's of other users repeating ourselves to the person spamming join/parts lol 16:47:51 yep 16:48:16 on bright side we're less annoying :D 16:48:17 It's a lovely cascade effect. 16:48:31 Bill48105: Speak for yourself. I'm sure I'm plenty annoying. 16:48:40 ^^ 16:48:42 :D 16:48:52 think anyone can be annoying at times 16:49:04 trick is to remain under threshold of quiet or kick ban 16:49:56 I don't even try to be annoying. I dunno. 16:50:32 too bad irc clients didn't default to not showing join parts eh. then it'd be like discord & other newb networks where users ping pong 1000x a day & no one notices 16:51:21 I prefer being able to see it for the people who don't yo-yo all the time, so I know whether someone with whom I'm speaking is even there. 16:51:22 you can hide them on your own irc client 16:51:34 orly_owl: Yeah, but Bill48105 was talking about defaults. 16:51:52 true, he was 16:52:06 I wonder whether there are still clients that don't allow that (other than the occasional "I wrote my own client" case). 16:52:23 aka total shit clients 16:52:43 I especially don't feel like I should block those messages for channels where I'm an op. 16:52:46 heaps of irc clients around, no excuse to not have it 16:53:01 being op is just unpaid work 16:53:06 other than people who just want to write their own and haven't added that feature yet 16:53:32 hmm 16:53:37 orly_owl: So is changing the oil on your own car or writing open source software. 16:54:04 oh, right 16:54:14 apotheon: was a joke 16:54:19 yep 16:54:23 k 16:54:29 yeah i was saying we are jsut used to seeing join parts on irc since it's default on most all clients to show them 16:54:49 i see 16:55:05 had we not been used to seeing them or if they were not possible to even be shown (jsut the user list updates like discord etc) then no one would bitch about join part spam :D 16:55:13 the irc protocol was probably designed with dial up internet in mind 16:55:22 right 800 years ago 16:55:35 and people were on a few min actually talked then came back another day 16:55:36 it was 1988, but sure 16:55:45 i recall i was there ;) 16:55:48 quite a while ago for technology 16:55:59 Bill48105: you wrote the first irc client didnt you? :) 16:56:18 no but i was early michnet user and on the old school bbs 16:56:39 remember merit? 16:56:39 real men use telnet/netcat and answer PING's by hand 16:56:57 My parental units sucked, so I didn't get the opportunity to use the internet in 1988. 16:57:00 https://www.coindesk.com/kraken-fund-brink-bitcoin-developer-grant-rust 16:57:07 krak all in a da rust 16:57:19 burp: answer pings by hand . . . great 16:57:47 Idk why I keep dropping 16:57:53 hell i remember being online & no screen.. the dot matrix printer was where it output to 16:57:54 I'll be honest I thought that was just part of the IRC experience 16:58:01 People just dropping and joining constantly 16:58:04 lol 16:58:11 Why doesn't the Rust Evangelism Strike Force launch OxideCoin? 16:58:24 let me guess you have irc on your phone & you walk around the house 16:58:30 Bill48105: sounds like a CEO who still prints emails 16:58:32 rusty ventures 16:58:49 lol nice 16:58:53 rusty trombone 16:59:01 wow 16:59:04 That took a turn. 16:59:10 ;) 16:59:31 but really you'd dial by hand put the phone handset in the acoustic coupler & wait for the prompts to print out. then you'd type responses 16:59:47 good thing call waiting didnt exist then 17:00:08 good times 17:00:17 Bill48105: "ASL?" 17:00:20 I recall my father being ridiculously proud of his 800 baud modem. 17:00:46 burp: do real men also have a picture of lenna on their walls? 17:01:09 apotheon: has he kept pace with technology 17:01:15 that's what happens wen you got a *hawt baud* 17:01:22 slowest i used was 300 baud but 1200 was common 17:01:49 The 800 baud modem he got was probably the first or second model available at that speed. 17:02:07 He had a cellphone when the first hand-held cinderblock-size cellphones appeared. 17:02:09 hand me downs to the school yeah lol 17:02:20 He bought a CD player when there were something like five CDs available in the US. 17:02:32 He was kinda ridiculous about that stuff. 17:02:40 yeah but does he have fiber internet now? 17:02:44 On the plus side, he was the reason I had my first computer. 17:02:52 orly_owl: I have no idea, and don't care. 17:03:02 ouch 17:03:10 sounds like he was an early adopter, aka paid the highest price for the first generation 17:03:11 awkward 17:03:18 ok then 17:03:20 nm... 17:03:30 What he has is half a dozen different eye/vision problems, and has to get shots in his eyeballs every month. 17:03:34 It's crazy. 17:03:46 is that from smoking 17:03:49 No I have it on my laptop lol 17:03:52 nope, never smoked 17:03:54 I've never used IRC on my phone 17:04:15 your laptop might be going to sleep or turning off your connection to save power 17:04:15 ooooof, shots in your eyeballs? 17:04:37 vision problems from what then? early adopter of high blood pressure as well? 17:04:43 pixelized[m]: the joys of poor health 17:04:53 diabetes can wreck eyes bad if that's it 17:04:56 I have a weird collection of feelings about Dad, especially any time something involving money in the last two decades comes up (and his likelihood of having fiber optic internet at home qualifies as "money", I guess). 17:05:00 Sorry about that answer. 17:05:29 eh np 17:05:33 He lost my fucking car years ago. He basically disowned his father over nothing. Good times. 17:05:38 good reminder to me to watch my health, i've gained like 30 pounds in the last year 17:05:56 pixelized[m]: I have a great suggestion for how to deal with that. 17:05:59 my god 17:06:04 * lord_fomo[m] uploaded an image: (193KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/NYAzRTriplEsJloqTcUkQCzC/image.png > 17:06:05 pixelized[m]: i can call you fat at regular intervals for a small monthly fee 17:06:30 i'm not strictly fat yet, it also wouldn't really work for me but thanks 17:06:41 ok just so you know 17:06:57 lord_fomo[m]: that guy got killed for his gold shirt 17:06:59 i'll keep it in mind in case i need something to spend my monero on on the regular :P 17:07:00 last i checked 17:07:04 do tell? 17:07:12 also, man, that's quite a thing 17:07:15 pixelized[m]: theres always drugs! 17:07:19 pixelized[m]: Start by setting an absolute, inviolable rule for yourself between seven at night and seven in the morning where you consume zero calories. Gradually increase the time you're not allowed to have calories until it's sixteen hours. 17:07:32 Live like that. It'll help a lot with health things generally, and weight loss in particular. 17:07:39 bruh there's already an obvious solution to "fat" 17:07:40 almost everyone has some sort of serious family issue but it's always the worst when it involves your parents or siblings 17:07:40 sounds like intermitent fasting 17:07:41 cmon 17:07:47 peeps been doing it for millenia 17:07:54 lord_fomo[m]: is it a gold shirt? 17:08:00 you said it 17:08:05 also whats that logo 17:08:07 fasting ftw 17:08:10 obv its a coin 17:08:12 turtle coin 17:08:16 apparently based on xmr 17:08:17 ok 17:08:23 i just learned about it this week 17:08:30 their room is friggin hillarious 17:08:36 you know what i'll try the 'increased time of no eating a day' thing, apotheon 17:08:37 did some ninja turtles makes it 17:08:43 sounds like a smart way to ease yourself into eating less 17:09:11 orly_owl: It is intermittent fasting, but it's the easiest form of intermittent fasting known to humankind. It ends up feeling like "life is normal" instead of "my god I'm starving for a whole day every week". 17:09:19 also sounds better than something like only eating every other day 17:09:30 pixelized: i been "intermittent fasting" for like 5 yrs 17:09:32 only way to be 17:09:39 starving sucks, thats why i change the channel when those ads come on 17:09:40 go back to your roots 17:09:49 3 meals a day is coorps cucking you for profit 17:09:55 plain and simple 17:09:55 really bums me out 17:09:56 not sure if joking, lord_fomo, but i do agree 17:10:01 i'm not 17:10:03 I've been eating only in an eight-hour window every day for quite a while now. It's great. 17:10:04 alright 17:10:04 lord_fomo[m]: the food pyramid is the real scam 17:10:06 yeah i hold the same position 17:10:08 i do multi-dayers too 17:10:14 done one every month this year so far 17:10:23 I sometimes forget to eat breakfast until it's late enough that I end up with a six-hour window of eating, actually. 17:10:28 i've been doing two meals, sometimes one a day as well 17:10:36 turn this into a habit 17:10:40 it's actually super easy 17:10:44 just takes time 17:10:53 lord_fomo[m]: I remember when I'm hungry in the morning, which isn't always. 17:10:57 with intermittent days of not eating more than the equivalent of an apple or so 17:11:08 but whenever i do eat anything it always turns out to be an insane amount 17:11:13 i eat one meal a day usually after 17:00 17:11:17 and low carb 17:11:20 pixelized[m]: It helps if the first calories you consume are purely protein and animal fat, and if there isn't a lot of it. 17:11:21 two slices of bread always seem to turn into 6 - 10 17:11:32 wtf 17:11:40 are you building a bread house 17:11:48 ^ will keep you in ketosis if maintained 17:11:48 pixelized[m]: That'll help kinda train you to be less hungry in the mornings, and it'll extend the ketosis a little bit for extra benefits. 17:11:59 wat apotheon said 17:12:18 nah not building a bread house, just... an avid eater of bread i guess? 17:12:29 honestly once you drop it you don't miss it 17:12:37 big + with fasting is your mind is clear all day 17:12:42 so you can get shit dun 17:12:43 your bread must be really tasty then 17:12:52 yeah the bread is pretty good 17:12:59 The missus loves bread. 17:13:15 where do you people live that bread is just super fantastic? 17:13:25 but it's hard to get bread that doesn't at least taste still taste somewhat like fresh bread here 17:13:37 pixelized[m]: A fun trick is to drink whole milk, if you're used to 2% or skim or whatever. You'll actually feel full a lot faster if you use whole milk. 17:13:42 i really like bread, but the massive crash in energy that comes from indulging is hardly worth it anymore 17:13:44 heck it's even pretty unusual to get any sort of canned foods, it's all fresh 17:13:51 carbs in general 17:14:00 apotheon, i wouldn't dare drink skim milk 17:14:08 the only milk i ever use in my life is whole milk 17:14:14 Losing weight by drinking skim milk is like losing weight by eating one piece of toast: it makes you hungrier, and isn't actually healthier. 17:14:25 but i don't drink milk regardless 17:14:26 pixelized[m]: good for you 17:14:38 I don't drink milk straight except with cookies, generally. 17:14:42 though i do consume a lot of cheese 17:14:46 mmm, snickerdoodles 17:14:54 mmm, cheese 17:14:59 i don't drink milk, even with cookies 17:15:04 deep fried mars bars 17:15:08 Do you eat snickerdoodles? 17:15:10 somehow milk always registers as 'cow juice' in my mind and i find it very hard to get down 17:15:15 wow 17:15:31 If you actually put a cow in a juicer, you'd get pulpy blood. 17:15:32 but i have no trouble consuming cheese, probably out of habit 17:15:34 pixelized: then wat are eggz 17:15:36 bruh 17:15:46 chicken placenta 17:15:46 eggs are bum nuts 17:15:54 its the same hole 17:16:00 it's period bruh 17:16:03 or chicken period 17:16:04 there's no placenta 17:16:10 yah 17:16:19 it's not a particularly rational thing, freud would probably suggest i almost drowned in a bucket of milk as a kid or whatever 17:16:26 Here's a great thought: 17:16:41 Chickens defecate and give birth through the same hole. 17:16:55 That's where we get our eggs. 17:16:56 bloaaaaaat 17:17:01 cloacas are bloat 17:17:06 get one thing to do one thing well 17:17:07 ya chicken 17:17:07 Food, it turns out, is disgusting. 17:17:13 ^ 17:17:30 yeah, i'm very aware 17:18:05 somehow milking animals has never been an issue to me (as an unintentional bugman it's not something i've done often, but sometimes) 17:18:08 but milk out of a carton 17:18:14 bugman? 17:18:17 idk, it just triggers something in me 17:18:30 maybe you should buy a cow 17:18:38 bugman = city dweller dependent on the system 17:18:52 isn't that a slicker 17:19:06 i have considered buying a cow but it's not particularly practical given that i have yet to move out of the city 17:19:26 also the ladyfriend would probably not appreciate it 17:19:27 slicker alert 🚨 17:19:44 How is a slicker a bugman? I'm curious about this term. 17:20:02 cuz they slippin in the muck 17:20:04 got ballance 17:20:08 need sidewalks to function 17:20:09 I considered buying a couple humans, to make me a few good meals every 9 months. 17:20:19 * got not ballance 17:20:24 pixelized[m]: ladyfriends keep having opinions, such a drag 17:20:26 pixelized[m]: Would you take your cow for walks in the afternoons, and carry around a thirty-gallon garbage bag to pick up the cowpies? 17:20:32 * got no balance 17:20:43 apotheon: you mean the excellent manure to put on the garden 17:21:02 orly said it well 17:21:15 yes, that 17:21:19 but i probably wouldn't given that it's looking unlikely i'll have a cow anytime soon 17:21:30 Tell me why the term "bugman" exists, though. 17:21:47 I must know. 17:21:59 i think it's derived from eusocial insects 17:22:06 hmm 17:22:10 where every individual functions as a mindless unit in a larger system 17:22:11 i know some of those words 17:22:12 That's interesting. 17:22:16 without much self-ownership 17:22:23 like a bee or ant, then 17:22:29 so like rednecks or office workers 17:22:31 indeed 17:22:44 and i guess that was just translated into 'bugman' through some happenings in history 17:22:51 yeah like rednecks or office workers 17:23:58 https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bug%20man 17:24:06 seems to kinda fit 17:24:16 but not for all cityfolk 17:24:22 i do break up cultural homogeneity a lot where i live and i'm very independent on the digital front 17:24:35 but when it comes to things that actually exist 17:24:44 so you're a digital front man 17:25:06 i'm still mostly just a cog and not a machine, if you will 17:25:36 I knew a guy who, the more he got into technology, the more he wanted to get away from urbanization, until he ended up keeping bees and raising cattle. 17:25:54 . . . or maybe didn't *end* there. He eventually seemed to have dropped off the face of the earth. 17:26:21 maybe he died 17:26:26 that sort of describes where i seem to be headed 17:26:35 and i think it's a pattern that holds for a lot of other people as well these days? probably? 17:26:36 orly_owl: I have no way of knowing at this point, I guess. 17:26:52 apotheon: check the obituraries i suppose 17:26:54 i do hope i'll keep my philosophy on this front reasonably nuanced though 17:27:05 not everyone has their death publishes though 17:27:31 *published 17:28:16 I also knew a guy who was a fantastic, very in-demand, software engineer type. He helped create the ecosystem where he was pretty much the undisputed top consultant worldwide. He ended up getting a divorce and became a literal orthodox monk, but he still writes code for a living; he just gives (most of?) the money to the monastery. 17:28:25 the real machines 17:28:53 i think a balance of both is good 17:28:59 i agree 17:29:09 but learning puters is arguably harder 17:29:16 the tinkering has a much steeper learning curve 17:29:27 i think something people also tend to do too little now a days is look back at the past and see what and how humans did way back when 17:29:30 like any language 17:29:32 I have old carbureted, air-cooled motorcycles, and I work on them myself. Does that count? 17:29:42 (for balance) 17:30:00 I use fountain pens and have a hand-wound pocket watch. 17:30:02 especially when people are trying to be more independent or change something about their own lives it's so often the case that people look towards some sort of tech gadget to achieve it for them 17:30:07 pixelized: i'd go further and say there's a class of peeps hoping you don't look 17:30:10 so they can pull the same tricks 17:30:12 apotheon: please dont go steampunk 17:30:14 because they got nothing else 17:30:15 I'm very picky about the paper I use. 17:30:20 and definitely aren't creative 17:30:34 I sometimes make my own butter, but I make it out of cream I buy at the supermarket. 17:30:46 as we go further into the future, less of what is done is actually done by human beings 17:31:08 so if you're trying to do something yourself, 'now' is definitely not always the best place to look for inspiration 17:31:16 orly_owl: Nah, I'm more cyberpunk at heart. 17:31:32 hey apotheon i also use fountain pens 17:31:38 hrmmmmm 17:31:40 have been for forty years 17:31:44 going to get myself a kaweco liliput soon, which i hope will last me a long time 17:32:13 pixelized[m], is your fountain pen connected to the net? 17:32:36 pixelized[m]: Cool. My favorite pens are a Platinum 3776 Century with soft-fine gold nib, an Esterbrook Estie with 1.1 stub nib, and a Platinum PRocyon with a fine nib. 17:32:39 yeah my fountain pen of choice is an IoT device from lamy with special spying and mind control features 17:33:06 pixelized[m], good. That shows you're not a terrorist. 17:33:10 If a company was going to make an Internet Of Shit pen, it would probably be Lamy. 17:33:23 s/pen/fountain pen/ 17:33:46 hence the specific inclusion of the lamy brand there ;) 17:33:50 yep 17:34:04 also: classy pens 17:34:28 I'm not a fan of any pen that requires proprietary cartridges and converters, and Lamy is so into that shit that it can sometimes be difficult to make sure you're getting the right converter for your Lamy pen. 17:34:41 https://www.penisland.net 17:34:47 I kinda hope Lamy falls in a ditch and breaks its neck. Your mileage may vary. 17:34:49 yeah it's really annoying, but lamy does make some pretty nice pens 17:35:11 i feel, at least 17:35:26 Meanwhile, Platinum is the only Japanese major brand that allows use of standard international cartridges and converters. You just have to get a one dollar adapter. 17:36:06 I've handled a couple Lamys that wrote rather well. They were a couple hundred bucks, plus the cost of professional nib adjustment, but they were nice writers. 17:36:29 Safaris are overvalued. I can get better pens for half the price. 17:37:15 I haven't bothered with Safaris enough to know about most of their pens, though, so I'm not really in a good position to judge which Safaris are really great. 17:37:50 Finding out about the whole cartridge and converter situation was enough for me to just opt out entirely. 17:37:57 i'm not in a position to really make any qualified broad statements about any set of fountain pens ;P 17:38:03 heh 17:38:04 i'm not that deep into them - just someone who likes to use them 17:38:21 I tend to research the shit out of a pen before buying, unless it's under ten bucks. 17:39:01 that's very reasonable 17:39:15 best to research the shit out of a pen, you don't want it to arrive with shit still in there 17:39:26 I wish I'd researched more before buying my first fountain pen. It turns out the Pilot Metropolitan is actually a crap pen. Don't believe all the positive reviews. 17:39:41 pixelized[m]: good point, re: shit 17:40:11 Maybe I should sell fountain pens for Monero. 17:40:25 (I might, actually, if OpenBazaar was still a thing.) 17:40:37 it died? :( 17:40:44 last October, I think 17:40:52 or maybe that was just the announcement 17:40:53 there seems to be some sort of an overlap between people who like using things they can fix themselves and people who like using monero 17:40:59 :( 17:41:11 It was effectively last October, because I think that was the last significant update to the software. 17:41:16 so the set of prospective customers probably wouldn't even be that small 17:41:32 I think maybe the official "we're out of business" moment was at the beginning of this year. 17:41:49 pixelized[m]: possibly 17:42:20 I'm not interested enough in sysadmin work to run an online fountain pen shop right now. 17:42:20 there needs to be a marketplace where you can use monero 17:42:28 other than a drug market 17:42:38 yes, other than that 17:42:51 on the topic of researching shit out of pens: i actually think my kaweco liliput investment will probably be quite bad in the 'money for writing experience' department, which is unfortunate 17:42:58 i mean you could sell pens on a darknet market 17:43:08 i just really like the size for carrying it with me, and the copper 17:43:22 I'd actually love for there to be (bear with me now) both a general marketplace where you can spend Monero *and* a service that lets you spend BCH but converts it into Monero to deliver it to the merchant. 17:43:32 and it does allow you to replace nibs so i could probably improve on the feel 17:44:09 apotheon: sounds good 17:44:09 . . . because I want to pay merchants with Monero, but I want to primarily use BCH at my end for "whitemarket" stuff so that I don't get associated in some NSA asshole's spreadsheet as "a Monero guy". 17:44:10 NSA? Morono protects me. 17:45:05 orly_owl: I don't want to end up in the dragnet roundup of the next darknet market for selling fountain pens. 17:45:12 loooool 17:45:23 embrace it apotheon and be proud 17:45:27 you thought criminal you 17:46:07 There was some discussion last night of the idea of not sticking out like a sore thumb for the feds to hammer down. 17:46:43 I found a merchant that sells all-natural wild game jerky and takes Monero. I was excited. 17:46:44 unless everyone pops like mushrooms and then they can't go after everyone 17:46:44 :D 17:46:49 Then, I found out they only ship within the EU. 17:46:52 damn 17:47:10 bitcoin maxi jerky you say 17:47:18 err 17:47:18 apotheon: authority figures carry hammers, and try to see everything as a nail that needs to be hammered down 17:47:24 right 17:47:32 thus my point about the hammer and the sore thumb 17:47:42 Actually, they see everything as a thumb that needs to be hammered down. 17:47:45 refuse to be tyrannized apotheon 17:47:47 best to look like something else, like a building 17:47:56 "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a thumb." 17:48:01 lol 17:48:09 have any of you ever considered going homeless? 17:48:11 out of curiosity 17:48:23 That's the Java equivalent of C++ jokes about blowing off your entire leg. 17:48:33 having a home is pretty useful 17:49:02 pixelized[m]: In the sense of moving into the woods with some swordsmith to live in a tent and be the swordsmith's apprentice for six years? Yeah, I considered it. 17:49:14 yeah, in that sense 17:49:15 not really pixelized[m], but some hoboing now and then can be nice 17:49:31 In the sense of living on the street, begging for change and drinking strawberry wine with my proceeds? No. 17:49:44 i was referring more to the woods idea 17:49:48 be a hobo by choice, not necessity 17:49:49 this is the way 17:49:51 or the 'travelling some sort of continent by foot' idea 17:50:16 In a way, I was homeless for a little bit, in that I slept on couches. That was transition from being a murderbot for the psychopaths to being a "libertarian". 17:50:31 well if you're going to be homeless, best to do it because you want to and not because you have to :P 17:50:32 pixelized[m]: Yeah, that has appealed to me. 17:51:20 These days, I'd rather have a nice home away from the assholes, with a big enough plot of land to have a long-distance shooting range in my back yard and a big enough garage for all my hobbies, and occasionally live on the road with a motorcycle for months at a time. 17:52:01 house and bike paid for by monero ofc 17:52:11 I also kinda plan to never actually sell a privacy coin. I'd rather just spend them (and receive them in payment, perhaps). 17:52:13 if that doesn't get the IRS knocking on your door, i don't know what will 17:52:35 I say "a privacy coin" because it's not inconceivable that Monero will get replaced by something better. 17:52:58 That something better just isn't anything else I've seen that people call a "privacy coin" so far, I think. 17:53:34 kayront: I don't think I'm going to buy the house with Monero, but maybe I'll buy a motorcycle or two with Monero some day. 17:53:47 personally i have a big issue with the expression "privacy coin".. it implies that the default is transparency, and certainly until very recently in history that has not been the case 17:53:57 I already have two bikes, though, and my current garage isn't big enough to add any more. 17:54:18 kayront: How do I succinctly refer to them if not as "privacy coins", then? 17:54:19 by 'murderbot for the psychopaths' you mean... ? apotheon 17:55:19 anyone used? 17:55:20 https://micahflee.com/2021/02/onionshare-tabs-anonymous-chat-cli/ 17:55:23 pixelized[m]: My job used to be, in essence, "fall from the heavens to earth below and destroy things, an instrument of wrath" (i.e. US Army airborne infantry). 17:55:24 that's a good question apotheon. just felt like pointing out that by using the expression falls into the frame .. like fatf and their "anonymity-enhanced cryptocurrency (AEC)".. but is monero an AEC, or are all the others anonymity-deprived cryptocurrencies? 17:55:27 It's not a job I recommend. 17:55:36 what do you guys reckon the likelihood is that a superior privacy coin will come to both exist and dominate monero in how much it's used? 17:55:56 apotheon: ghezus mate 17:56:00 I learned a lot, but there are better ways to learn such things, and that was basically the only real benefit. 17:56:19 understandable thing to get into 17:56:34 pixelized[m]: I think the likelihood is very high, but I think it'll be quite a while in the grand scale of cryptocurrencies so far. 17:56:37 but i can't imagine dropping bombs can feel very fulfilling for a long time 17:56:52 unless you're brad lea 17:56:56 (lol it's a podcast) 17:56:58 Oh, I didn't drop bombs. I was the bomb, in a way. I used a rifle and a parachute. 17:57:27 sounds much worse or slightly better depending on how you look at it 17:57:38 When people find out I'm a veteran they say stuff like "Thank you for your service." I always find myself having to hold back the impulse to say "I'm sorry." 17:57:46 . . . because it's not serving the interests of anyone good. 17:57:55 if such a coin is to come along and slay monero, what do you reckon its biggest selling point will probably be? 17:58:04 If I'd known then what I know now, I would have avoided the shit out of it on ethical grounds. 17:58:14 the idea is a noble one apotheon, imo, but clearly US foreign policy over the last decades has been anything but noble in general 17:58:19 and do you think the noethers would give up working on monero in favor of that other coin? 17:59:32 yeah the idea of 'protecting your country' is certainly noble and somewhat altruistic but it's so rare for soldiers to actually be in the business of defending their fellow man 17:59:41 As infantry, you'd have to confront the consequences of your actions much more closely, and it'd feel less "clean", but the consequences for others are far less dire when you have a rifle instead of bombs dropped from the sky. 18:00:00 At least, as an infantryman, I could be selective in who I killed . . . if I killed. 18:00:13 I'm pretty sure I never killed anyone, and I'm grateful to have escaped that. 18:00:34 kayront, lawl - US 'foreign policy' has been wholly criminal since 1776 18:01:21 kayront: I think US military policy has been utter shit, generally, since at the latest the mid-19th century. 18:01:21 that's maybe a bit of a stretch as2333 18:01:22 :p 18:01:44 I think the last US President term in office that wasn't a net negative might've been Grover Cleveland's first term. 18:01:46 kayront, look it up 18:03:14 The military parts of US foreign policy at least might have been wholly criminal since the US Constitution, but I don't know for sure. 18:03:30 I'm just pretty much entirely sure it has been shit since the Civil War. 18:03:56 I don't feel a burning need to look into it deeply enough before that to be sure. 18:04:23 which does beg the question then apotheon 18:04:25 I'm pretty sure it has been at least *partly* shit ever since the US Constitution's ratification, though. 18:04:27 howcome you joined the army_ 18:04:55 General Stupidity, Private Reasons, and a Colonel Of Good Intentions 18:05:03 see "War is a racket for instance" 18:05:15 "war is a racket" 18:05:16 I was less knowledgeable about the sheer level of shittiness. 18:05:33 Oh, the subject of war is great. Here's my definition of war: 18:05:51 War is powerful people sending powerless people to kill other powerless people for what other powerful people did. 18:06:21 The proper way to deal with the kinds of things that seem like justification for a "just war" is not war. 18:06:22 well, good thing you managed to escape it all unscathed 18:06:33 kayront: mostly unscathed, yeah 18:06:52 I don't have murder on my conscience, I only have a couple lingering internal scar tissue issues, and so on. 18:07:46 If someone wanted me to go assassinate a tyrannical dictator (and I felt up to it in skills and preparation), fine. I have no qualms about that shit. Fuck that guy. 18:08:07 If someone wanted to send me to kill other soldiers as part of an organized war campaign, though . . . fuck no. I'm a conscientious objector these days. 18:08:33 I'm also too old for them to pull back in, now, so there's that. 18:08:45 Use Monero. Undermine the tax regime that pays the war machine. 18:09:06 pump MDMA into the water supply 18:09:09 the end of all wars. guaranteed 18:09:11 :D 18:09:40 until iy wears off atleast 18:09:54 and turn up da beatz 18:10:00 maybe 4 hours in heaven is enough to change some perspectives forever 18:10:06 imo 18:10:09 it does for many people 18:10:13 biggest problem is boring people who are too serious 18:10:18 I don't want any MDMA, thanks. 18:10:19 their the ones that ruin everything 18:10:31 square boi 18:10:34 Then again, I distill my water. There's too much shit in tap water, even near the mountains in Colorado. 18:10:37 haha 18:10:46 oh you in CO eh? 18:10:50 hawwt 18:10:57 I don't need to meet my USRDA of lead. 18:10:57 but apotheon .. it's MDMA paid for by monero! do your part! adoption! 18:10:59 lord_fomo[m]: yep 18:11:02 i climbed long's peak couple years ago 18:11:06 and kelso ridge 18:11:11 you live in heaven 18:11:23 I haven't done any serious climbing out here. I've done no better than Horsetooth Rock. 18:11:25 old man mountain 18:11:28 you ever been there? 18:11:34 that one is just a native holy site 18:11:36 go up there 18:11:39 pap the M 18:11:43 and just be 18:12:15 I love that CO was one of the first places in the US to legalize pot for recreational use, but I hate that I have to occasionally smell it while going for a walk. 18:12:26 and psybin 18:12:32 lord_fomo[m]: No, I haven't been there. I should plot a course to it by motorcycle soon. 18:12:38 CO is best place in USA imo 18:12:55 old man mountain is so far my favorite view ever 18:13:03 I'm actually thinking of moving to MT. CO's laws are getting too stupid. 18:13:11 I might have to use KS as a layover point, though. 18:13:11 actually pretty sure the thing is to fast a day and stay over night on top 18:13:48 I'll try it without fasting first, so I know what I'm getting into. 18:13:49 wat laws 18:13:55 lol 18:14:03 you gotta do something 18:14:06 do some kratom 18:14:10 or shroomz 18:14:13 magazine capacity limits, red flag law, new bullshit around specific storage laws . . . 18:14:36 ahh gunz 18:14:48 i always forget CO is truly the most open minded state 18:14:55 it has both sides, free as ever 18:15:00 I don't recall whether my county finally did away with the CCW registry, but it doesn't much matter because I had my permit before the registry would've gone away, so I'm on record anyway. 18:15:14 It's getting less and less open minded about firearms. 18:15:24 well 18:15:37 i, fo r 18:15:38 i mean, there are bad peeps 18:15:39 It's getting so bad Weld County (not my county) is trying to secede and join Wyoming. 18:15:45 i, for one, would like to own a panzerfaust 18:15:46 If that happened, I might actually just stay in CO. 18:16:00 kayront: I want a panzerfaust! 18:16:08 so wack 18:16:16 i think ur the first faster i know that's into gunz 18:16:19 I also want a Mk 19. 18:16:19 😂 18:16:33 this gui cucks 18:16:49 I have no idea what emoji you stuck in there. 18:16:53 made me chuckle 18:17:01 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-J31320%2C_Berlin%2C_Posten_beim_Bau_einer_Stra%C3%9Fensperre.jpg 18:17:04 lel 18:17:04 just chillin' 18:17:06 with a panzerfaust 18:17:11 i think we need to go back to a city state system 18:17:15 personally 18:17:16 I haven't found a good enough Unicode monospace font. 18:17:24 this whole globalism thing clearly isn't workin 18:17:31 stupid thatcher 18:17:34 gd tinas 18:17:52 Calling me a "faster" just reminded me of some military slang. 18:17:55 with crypto, city states should be easier to implement then ever 18:18:14 then we can have machine gun town, and flaming orgies-ville 18:18:15 "go faster" or "Johnny Go Faster", depending on whether it's an adjective or a noun 18:18:28 and i can buy beef in one and shells in the other 18:18:54 e.g. some special glasses frames one could get at US Cav were often called "go faster glasses" 18:19:11 18:17 < lord_fomo[m]> this whole globalism thing clearly isn't workin 18:19:13 depends on your goals 18:19:21 If you have shitty goals, it might be working fine. 18:19:33 18:17 < lord_fomo[m]> with crypto, city states should be easier to implement then ever 18:19:37 Screw that. I want panarchism. 18:19:42 Your "state" shouldn't be geographical. 18:19:46 yah, if you're super boring, want to own a bunch of empty mansions, do nothing useful for humanity, and be forgotten in 100 years. 18:20:00 it's perfect for you 18:20:02 or remembered as a villain 18:20:07 think Bill Gates 18:20:15 news flash: today's rich are the most useless people on the planet 18:20:24 they literally do nothing of value 18:20:26 People joke about Elon Musk being a Bond villain, but really that's Bill. 18:20:44 elon is fine 18:20:47 but he's mostly pump boi 18:20:50 Elon might be doing some useful things. 18:20:50 an edison 18:20:55 he's no starving tesla 18:20:59 right 18:21:04 smh 18:21:08 tinas have no clue 18:21:17 they get fed the pop tunes from the radio and think that's what music is 18:21:19 He doesn't strike me as the type who would fuck over a Tesla (the person). 18:21:29 puters in pigz brainz = "da future" 18:21:34 . . . so he's better than Tom Eddy that way. 18:21:36 not sure 18:21:48 i would hope so 18:22:02 i think it's weird he's not trying to solve our real problems 18:22:10 and instead is worried about getting off the planet 18:22:24 Maybe getting off-planet would solve our real problems. 18:22:31 Too much statism? Go to Mars! 18:22:37 ok there elesium 18:22:47 or wtv tf 18:22:58 Elysium the movie? 18:23:01 yah 18:23:06 That's a terrible movie. 18:23:07 eleeeziiiumm 18:23:13 Someone has never heard of "economics". 18:23:24 oh right 18:23:27 cuz that works well 18:23:32 "economics" 18:23:41 about the only thing they have is the double-auction model 18:23:44 nothing else works 18:23:49 Elysium itself, in the movie, wouldn't actually work -- and the "plan" to bring Elysium's riches to everyone wouldn't work, either. 18:24:11 ah 18:24:18 right, i honestly fell asleep for that flick 18:24:24 I'm talking about economics in the sense of "how economies work", not in the sense of "economists sell out to the state and justify horrors". 18:24:32 i mean 18:24:36 how do "they work" 18:24:44 it's always changing 18:25:25 hold up 18:25:29 the latest crockery coming up 18:25:46 apotheon, I'd say musk is a figurehead for the MIC 18:26:23 I might be labelling myself here, in a way, but . . . the Austrian school of economics seems much more reasonable than anything more popular. It actually gave rise to the insight of the economic calculation problem -- which governments just blatantly ignore every day, thus the reason everything's fucked up. 18:26:39 one of the reasons, anyway 18:26:43 as2333: MIC? 18:26:47 kayront: sure 18:26:52 probably the biggest 18:26:53 military industrial complex 18:26:54 another reason is greedy whitey 18:27:02 hoarding all the wealth and resources 18:27:08 us poc never get any 18:27:27 yeah, no 18:27:29 Most of the failures of economic management follow from the missing understanding of the economic calculation problem. 18:27:34 gotta go AFK for a bit 18:27:35 ta 18:27:38 same here 18:27:39 ahhh yee found it 18:27:41 later soldier! 18:27:44 right from the donkey's mouth 18:27:45 https://blogs.imf.org/2019/02/05/cashing-in-how-to-make-negative-interest-rates-work/ 18:28:21 look at this advanced theory 18:28:23 > In a cashless world, there would be no lower bound on interest rates. A central bank could reduce the policy rate from, say, 2 percent to minus 4 percent to counter a severe recession. The interest rate cut would transmit to bank deposits, loans, and bonds. Without cash, depositors would have to pay the negative interest rate to keep their money with the bank, making consumption and investment more attractive. This 18:28:23 would jolt lending, boost demand, and stimulate the economy. 18:28:35 "imagine we just kept doing what we're doing" 18:29:13 > One option to break through the zero lower bound would be to phase out cash. But that is not straightforward. Cash continues to play a significant role in payments in many countries. To get around this problem, in a recent IMF staff study and previous research, we examine a proposal for central banks to make cash as costly as bank deposits with negative interest rates, thereby making deeply negative interest rates 18:29:13 feasible while preserving the role of cash. 18:29:59 > The proposal is for a central bank to divide the monetary base into two separate local currencies—cash and electronic money (e-money). E-money would be issued only electronically and would pay the policy rate of interest, and cash would have an exchange rate—the conversion rate—against e-money. This conversion rate is key to the proposal. When setting a negative interest rate on e-money, the central bank would le 18:29:59 conversion rate of cash in terms of e-money depreciate at the same rate as the negative interest rate on e-money. The value of cash would thereby fall in terms of e-money. 18:30:08 lord_fomo[m], hilarious garbage 18:30:21 they're literally so un-creative it's embarrasing 18:30:28 hehe 18:30:35 and so obsessed with maintaining existing power structures 18:31:05 these are the people providing the tina narrative 18:31:11 they should be outright ignored 18:31:36 they're a bunch of hacks 18:31:39 plain and simple 18:31:59 all they understand is small-minded centralism 18:32:01 because they never wrote code 18:32:10 buncha cowards imo 18:32:48 well, computers lend themselves to centralization too. 18:33:04 so 18:33:08 they also don't 18:33:11 what's ur point 18:33:34 as a matter of fact the current shitshow is all about putting everything in the NSA datacenter. 18:33:57 who really needs to get called out are all the nerds who do this for a living 18:34:01 they need to be exciled 18:34:10 without them the dumbass overloads can't do shit 18:34:25 evil nerds imo are the main problem 18:34:37 people too afraid to live for freedom and themselves 18:34:37 false, they're nodes in and of themselves. only the information held within is centralized. 18:34:40 I mean, "writing code" doesn't necessarily get you to appreciate decentralization. Just that side note. . 18:34:58 obviously i mean concurrency 18:35:06 principle of charity guis 18:35:07 cmon 18:35:29 the whole gawd damn money system can be viewed as a conc problem 18:35:37 $$ is a semaphore for access to resources 18:35:52 lord_fomo[m], indeed - the evil nerds are mercenaries 18:36:00 all these cucks think about is nobel prizes and names on buildings 18:36:02 afaict 18:36:27 centralism stops as soon as the minions say no 18:36:29 it's real simple 18:36:39 it's just yet another consensus problem 18:36:51 why $crypto hasn't first focussed on voting tech is beyond me 18:36:59 that's our obvious pertinent problem 18:37:34 gwohl[m], it seems kinda self-evident that centralization and control of all information is done using computers. Looking at the equipment in the racks as 'ndoes' doesn't change much. 18:38:04 it's about state coherency imo 18:38:14 that's why actor model theory existss 18:38:17 * that's why actor model theory exists 18:38:40 stop trying to grok all the state, the uni is big, it can't be done 18:38:59 Hi there everyone 18:39:20 Howdy partner 18:39:53 * lord_fomo[m] resets mood 18:39:54 I'm a big supporter of MONERO 18:40:16 * lord_fomo[m] uploaded an image: (473KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/vigCOOhatrCJFUPwwgzXNqEE/image.png > 18:40:49 Getting fed up of all crypto supposed to be decentralized when all our banks are connected to exchanges 18:41:17 it's almost like they want you to go all in a digital currency 😉 18:41:29 In a cashless world, there wou"> right? 18:41:30 LOL @Lord_Fomo 18:42:11 wait, it has fOaTInG PoINt? 18:42:16 I know, that's why I'm accumulating as much XMR and shilling it to all my friends 18:42:33 then ur in the right place i think 18:43:09 Centralized banks suck. 18:43:17 Fiat is worthless 18:43:38 Bro just print more money bro 18:43:40 tell that to my massager person 18:43:53 and my gardener 18:43:58 But exchanges are practically Centralized if we pay tax if we cash to Fiat 18:44:23 see how we need a wiki on how to get to xmr using your privates 18:44:24 Hey, I take crypto as payment for a few years now. 18:45:00 I was even talking to the Marijuana stores here in LA 18:45:07 About XMR 18:45:43 But Feds are regulating those stores 18:46:12 lord_fomo[m]: That quote about enabling negative interest rates is, in a nutshell, exactly the same as A Modest Proposal. 18:46:40 😆 18:46:41 link 18:47:54 Can you please help me out by subscribing to my YouTube channel 18:48:16 Am I allowed to post my channel link 18:48:56 ugh 18:49:00 https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/Report_on_a_digital_euro~4d7268b458.en.pdf 18:49:17 MoonKhatt[m]: Why would I want to subscribe to your YouTube channel? 18:49:29 That's a serious question. Is there something about it I'd like? 18:49:54 see the edison speak 18:49:56 > R1: Enhanced digital efficiency (if launched to support digitalisation): The digital euro should keep pace with state-of-the-art technology at all times in order to best address the needs of the market as regards, among other attributes, usability, convenience, speed, cost efficiency and programmability. It should be made available through standard interoperable front-end solutions throughout the entire euro area and 18:49:56 should be interoperable with private payment solution 18:50:08 (I haven't read all the backscroll from when I was AFK, so I have no idea whether this was already explained.) 18:50:14 squawk sqawk english words about tech that say nothing 18:50:32 Because I need about 55 subscribers to get monetized. I'm a Scottish chick living in LA 18:50:42 Please 18:50:42 programmability 18:50:46 that's a word right? 18:50:51 BRB 18:50:52 i dunno ask the devs 18:51:38 ohhhh 18:51:39 https://www.thefreedictionary.com/programmability 18:51:44 programmability 18:52:02 https://youtu.be/QKmrhCqmhL4 18:52:19 this is the people running central banks 18:52:22 literally tech idiots 18:52:45 My channel is UGP Crypto Vlogs 18:53:10 shillin google services i don't think is as much allowed Mooner 18:53:17 * shillin google services i don't think is as much allowed 🌙MoonKhatt🚀 18:53:31 moreso the shillin xmr 18:53:38 Youtube is an evil platform, it should not be promoted or even tolerated 18:53:38 18:34 < lord_fomo[m]> evil nerds imo are the main problem 18:53:52 yah 18:53:56 like if you were going to fix it 18:54:02 I know, Google sucks. I've been trying to deGoogle my Android and it's hard to live without my iPhone 🤦🏼‍♀️ 18:54:10 pull them out (or recruit them to the freedom side) and the whole thing topples 18:54:11 "A nuke_baghdad() function is immoral. It should be nuke_city() and take 'Baghdad' as a parameter." 18:54:21 since, as mentioned, the people with the power are basically useless 18:54:28 they have zero actual skillz 18:54:35 just really good at shilling 18:54:36 Is your channel relevant to Monero? 18:54:36 I'm trying to switch over to LBRY but getting time 18:54:37 and spending money 18:54:51 I'm shilling MONERO yep 18:55:02 You aren't even trying then 18:55:07 Ooh what's your LBRY channel? I can subscribe to that 18:55:13 dis 18:55:14 18:36 < lord_fomo[m]> why $crypto hasn't first focussed on voting tech is beyond me 18:55:14 Yeah, the bar is pathetically low 18:55:23 I plan on having Tshirts made and car license frames etc 18:55:30 makes sense $crypto came out of foss 18:55:35 that's where all the skillz are 18:55:38 You can't fix voting as a way to run society short of making it depend on 100% perfect consensus, and making it arbitrarily revocable. 18:55:53 I'm working in LBRY channel. 18:56:04 notice you hear nothing of a pump around foss or fair voting systems in the media 18:56:11 it's almost as if that would be bad for the useless types 18:56:17 if the tinas knew 18:56:21 No gatekeeping, some people are stuck with Google more than others 18:56:40 MoonKhatt[m]: I don't know how others feel, but I'd be fine with shilling Monero on YouTube as an excuse for sharing your channel here. 18:56:47 > <@ieatglueforbreakfast:halogen.city> You aren't even trying then 18:56:47 * Gatekeeping isn't cool IMO, some people are stuck with Google more than others 18:56:47 🌙MoonKhatt🚀 have you looked into LineageOS or GrapheneOS for a Google free Android? 18:56:47 You guys heard of the Hated One? 18:56:50 MoonKhatt[m]: Let's make it explicit: 18:56:54 voting systems are a field of active research 18:56:59 MoonKhatt[m]: What's your channel? I'd like to see it. 18:57:02 look how much of it is being tested / implemented 18:57:05 lord_fomo[m]: I know they are. 18:57:09 Awh thank you ❤ 18:57:11 hell, even mentioned 18:57:25 lord_fomo[m]: The problem is imagining that we can solve problems by applying a majority opinion. 18:57:25 then why you discounting something that hasn't had a chance 18:57:30 you don't need 100% concensus 18:57:31 UGP Crypto Vlogs 18:57:38 never said that 18:57:44 MoonKhatt[m]: Now you answer my question with a link. 18:57:44 pretty sure i just said city states a big back 18:57:48 which is def not that 18:57:48 UGP stands for UberGirl Paula 18:57:52 Is UGP Crypto Vlogs the name of it? 18:57:55 * pretty sure i just said city states a bit back 18:57:56 I'll look it up. 18:58:00 I can't subscribe, but I might download your Youtube videos in case they get taken down for some reason 18:58:11 Yes, That's my channel name 18:58:11 lord_fomo[m]: I'm for non-geographical associations rather than geographical. 18:58:14 * Elementoshi[m] doesn't have a Google account and is proud of it 18:58:20 apotheon: of course 18:58:23 Geographical associations with their own rules can more easily tyrannize. 18:58:33 You guys are awesome. Much appreciated for that. 18:58:34 City-states are an improvement, but don't solve the problem. 18:58:36 "digital city states" then 18:58:41 i mean why not 18:58:55 sure 18:59:06 not saying i have the answer (yet) 18:59:08 or virtual 18:59:14 but peeps should be thinking about this 18:59:16 Throw in the word "virtual", and I'm more on-board. 18:59:23 q.v. panarchism 18:59:25 There's a video of me in my bath tub where I show deGoogle my Android 😆 18:59:34 It doesn't even have to be digital, though. 19:00:12 The thing about panarchism is that you can change memberships just by deciding to do it. You don't have to move. 19:00:23 how do we implement fair redistribution in the monero blockchain 19:00:32 i.e. % per tx going to black causes 19:00:41 What I'm terrified of is the grids going down all at once 19:00:51 How would we access digital currency 19:00:55 ferox_thinkpad: found a nonprofit initiative of some kind 19:00:57 MoonKhatt[m], link? 19:01:09 Brb 19:01:18 MoonKhatt[m]: We need more work on mesh networks and more shielded electronics. 19:01:19 apotheon: are you sure it shouldn't be digital 19:01:20 * lord_fomo[m] posted a file: (1233KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/UFNUSjDRxRzFaliYXvLglzDD/web_3.0.png > 19:01:49 lord_fomo[m]: What if someone's panarchic association is run via voice over short wave radio? 19:01:55 I think it would be cool if there were a cryptocurrency optimized for sneakernet networking 19:01:55 the problem is not the 'grid going down' - the problem is that the arpanet was created and is owned by the enemy 19:02:06 so hawt 19:02:09 i wish i knew more about da hams 19:02:13 lord_fomo[m]: I'm not saying none of it should be digitally administered -- just that we shouldn't assume everything will be digital. 19:02:21 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaplvcafnGCw4GBwyFXrRN 19:02:24 yah was just trolling 19:02:39 BACK UNDER YOUR BRIDGE 19:02:40 Can you run a Monero network and make transactions over a sneakernet? 19:02:40 but ma meme didn't work 19:02:54 sure 19:03:01 MoonKhatt[m], link to the video? sorry I'm not browsing jewtube =) 19:03:02 slowly 19:03:03 Trolling UGP? 19:03:08 apotheon: i just wanna surf with you bruh 19:03:14 through dat netz 19:03:24 Brb 19:03:43 You could conceivably use guerilla shortwave radio to transmit transaction data to a passive listener that is, in turn, connected to a computer that translates the message into the Monero protocol and sends it across the internet, too. 19:03:53 > jewtube 19:03:53 yo that's kinda bigoted 19:03:56 https://youtu.be/YMlpEgoMPso 19:04:08 Elementoshi[m]: Who said that? 19:04:10 I missed it. 19:04:24 Oh, as2333 . . . 19:04:25 * > jewtube 19:04:25 yo that's kinda bigoted 19:04:27 I should've guessed. 19:05:19 It's kinda ironic that racists and alt-right people are using Monero, a global currency that anybody can use 19:05:38 yep 19:06:13 I sometimes wonder how they feel about the fact that the minorities they hate so much for their skin color can also use Monero if they want to. 19:08:33 So has anybody seen this post on Reddit yet? https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mmrchk/im_happy_to_announce_haveno_the_monero_based_dex/ 19:08:59 MoonKhatt[m]: Do you have a link directly to a Monero-related video of yours? 19:09:25 cool it with the anti-semitic remarks 19:10:05 ferox_thinkpad: as2333 already left, and was the only person I noticed with an antisemitic remark 19:10:23 i was just kidding anyway 19:10:27 okay 19:12:03 .val 0.008469 xmr 19:12:04 somethingUniqueR: ≈$2.273 • ≈ value of: 0.008469 XMR • Source: cmc/ccc/altm 19:19:06 Would you guys prefer if I had less a's in my name 19:19:13 What is the optimal amount of a's 19:20:21 7 19:20:38 i would really prefer that 19:22:06 I like 12 though 19:22:21 12 isn't a power of 2. Maybe you should reduce it to a power of 2. 19:22:57 (Once we get it down to 8, we can request a reduction to a prime number.) 19:23:01 12 is easy for me to remember I just press the letter a in 4 keystrokes 3 different times 19:23:26 7 is an odd number it would be harder to remember 19:23:29 Make it two keystrokes three different times. That'd be even easier. 19:23:37 That would be 6 though 19:23:40 sure 19:23:43 I'm fine with six. 19:24:08 Is that enough a's to be noticeable as a unique username 19:24:22 probably 19:24:26 try it 19:24:34 That nickname is registered 19:24:38 damn 19:24:45 Try one more. 19:24:52 9 a's 19:24:56 Is this good? 19:25:01 "better" 19:25:27 Will people think I am different from 12 a's though? Like im a different person because I only have 9 a's? 19:25:35 no 19:25:38 probably not 19:26:07 Okay I can work with 9 a's 19:26:25 Now can someone unban me from Monero-pools 19:26:26 We can work on your naming skils later. 19:26:33 I don't have that power. 19:26:50 Also, you probably need to fix your connection stability issue to ensure you don't get banned again. 19:26:59 I have had unique usernames in the past but I found out if you have all a's people can't google your username and dox you 19:27:04 The 12-a issue only exacerbates it; it isn't the whole cause of the issue. 19:27:26 Not sure what that is honestly I left my laptop idling all night mining Monero and it keeps dropping connection 19:27:27 What about gfedcba? 19:27:34 It's just abcdefg backward. 19:27:37 Already sounds too unique 19:27:55 Maybe I should just steal some corporate name 19:27:58 "Coca-cola" 19:28:05 What about pewdiepie? 19:28:19 That's not unique. Someone else uses it on YouTube. 19:28:21 MicroAppleColasoft 19:28:26 That would work but I think people would be more worried about me having that name than 12 a's 19:28:26 ProjectEpsilon: nice 19:28:37 pewdiecake 19:28:42 "Shell gasoline" 19:31:09 What do you guys do to transfer personal wallet addresses between devices 19:31:22 Like to send Monero to yourself or to set up a mining rig 19:32:15 QR codes, KDE Connect, and SSH are what I usually use 19:33:10 If you use Signal on a phone and a desktop you can use the Note To Self feature 19:34:33 Yeah I've been using signal or emails to myself via proton mail 19:34:51 >QR codes 19:35:38 Are your Proton emails to yourself encrypted? 19:36:14 Not sure, does it default to encrypted when sent to self? 19:36:20 Part of the reason why im asking 19:36:29 I feel that is not a safe way to do it 19:36:36 * Elementoshi[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/AaMZohZWuDSJZTGuzGsoNmqo/message.txt > 19:37:04 Yes its E2E 19:37:08 When sent to self 19:37:20 Oh sweet 19:37:40 I jsut wish I didn't have to pay for Protonmail in order to use an external client. 19:37:54 Maybe I'll try Protonmail out one of these days 19:38:02 <@ooka_ren:tchncs.de> >QR code"> i just think that every big system that can do many task is insecure. 19:38:04 > <@copenhagen_bram:matrix.org> What are your concerns with KDE Connect's security? 19:38:04 * i just think that every big system that can do many tasks is insecure. 19:38:29 I'm thinking of buying a mining rig for Monero which is why im asking not sure if ill be able to access proton mail on it 19:38:31 like when devs creating new shit instead of polishing one thing 19:38:42 Might just run Xmrig off a command line or something idk 19:38:56 if you want to sync files, use unison 19:39:00 I'm just curious and trying to figure this stuff out im new to cl interfaces and stuff 19:39:37 I have to agree with you a little bit about KDE Connect's insecurity because of one incident that happened. I was using the Tor Browser on a website that asked permission to send notifications to the browser. When it sent a notification, I got the same notification on my phone. Now that was a little spooky. 19:40:04 Something to watch out for anyone else who happens to use KDE Connect and Tor at the same time. 19:42:28 If you pay for ProtonMail and use a CLI email interface like alpine or mutt or something, it might work 19:42:37 https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/bridge-cli-guide/ 19:43:41 Thanks ill try unison if that doesn't work ill try proton mail 19:45:40 aaaaaaaaa: I use SSH/SCP for sharing a single file, generally. 19:45:56 I occasionally use sshfs for cases where it makes sense. 19:46:59 That works for computers connected to the same network I assume? 19:47:24 yep 19:47:54 Ok thanks sorry I'm super new to all this stuff I've only played around with like Debian servers before but nothing really significant 19:48:06 It can also work across the internet, as long as the remote system is accessible (whether via port forwarding, or whatever). 19:48:31 I quite like scp for one-off file transfers. 19:48:36 Yeah I think I would connect to Debian servers via ssh but that was a few years ago so I might be confused 19:48:48 Debian comes with OpenSSH by default. 19:48:58 . . . which includes ssh, scp, and sftp commands. 19:49:40 (unless the core devs decided to fuck up Debian so badly it no longer comes with OpenSSH, but I doubt that) 19:55:49 Do we have to use Chrome in order to use Trezor? I get a WebUSB error in firefox 20:02:46 > When it sent a notification, I got the same notification on my phone. Now that was a little spooky. 20:02:52 it might relay dbus events 20:04:53 If you have to use Chrome with Trezor . . . that seems bad. 20:05:51 To use Firefox with Trezor, you have to install Trezor Bridge. Then it works just fine with Firefox 20:06:00 Source: Have used Trezor in Firefox 20:06:19 But Trezor's online client doesn't have Monero 20:06:35 Monero's official GUI and CLI both support Trezor, however. 20:10:32 ah, useful information 20:12:29 Yes. Monero, however, isn't supported by the cheaper of the Trezors with the buttons. Unfortunately, you have to get the premium Trezor device, the Trezor T or whatever, that has a touch screen and costs $150 or something 20:12:55 And you can't buy it with Monero, you have to buy it with bitcoin or a credit card. 20:13:07 lamesauce 20:13:14 ikr 20:13:21 You could buy it with Monero from a third party, I suppose. 20:13:43 "Hey, buy this with BTC, then sell it to me for Monero! That's how you can turn BTC into Monero without a KYC exchange." 20:13:46 there you go 20:14:01 There should be a "Monero Proxy" site like the localmonero sites. 20:14:03 You could, but how could you guarantee that third party hasn't hacked the Trezor to steal your crypto? 20:14:09 . . . or maybe the localmonero sites would work for that. I'm not sure. 20:14:20 My usual experience is that there's nobody local to me on localmonero. 20:14:31 Yeah, use a XMR to BTC exchanger 20:14:37 Elementoshi[m]: Maybe look over his shoulder. 20:14:46 I think Monerujo has sideshift dot ai or something built in 20:14:49 Elementoshi[m]: How would you guarantee Trezor doesn't have something sketchy in there? 20:14:56 hmm 20:15:06 I should check whether that's true of Monerujo. 20:15:23 Elementoshi[m]: You seem to know stuff about Monero wallets and so on. Can you tell me your thoughts on Monerujo vs. Cake? 20:16:00 You can use local Monero for cash by mail 20:16:09 Or use bisq 20:16:18 Use Zelle 20:16:22 Or use Haveno when the project matures 20:16:34 hello guys 20:16:35 I'm not too keen on cash-mail-order stuff. 20:16:38 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mmrchk/im_happy_to_announce_haveno_the_monero_based_dex/ 20:16:50 > How would you guarantee Trezor doesn't have something sketchy in there? 20:16:52 wtf 20:16:58 Just drops connection mid sentence 20:17:08 Nothing is 100% secure, I have indeed worried a little about whether Trezor Inc could be compromised 20:17:08 watatatatatatataazdfuckkkkk 20:17:09 I'm literally on a video chat meeting but the connection from that didn't drop 20:17:13 Weird 20:17:20 I'm not even sure sending nontrivial cash via USPS is legal. 20:17:28 Well 20:17:31 jkhdcykydhvyjkfdhvjkyöfjygxhvjygljgvjhyxgfldy 20:17:34 BTC atm 20:17:42 aaaaaaaaa: Maybe your other high-bandwidth activities are interfering with your IRC connection. 20:17:46 Zelle (links your identity) 20:17:47 But Trezor does use open source software AND hardware (people build their own Trezors sometimes) 20:18:03 BTC ATMs are KYC in the US. 20:18:11 Maybe, I have monerod, the cli, and xmrig running 20:18:15 (and rarely deal Monero) 20:18:24 Well they're KYC above a certain amount 20:18:24 aaaaaaaaa: and a video call 20:18:27 Can confirm, I live in the US 20:18:30 Yea a video conference lol 20:18:41 I'm really looking forward to using this Haveno project 20:18:49 aaaaaaaaa: Most of them are KYC period, but yeah, some do push the max limit for non-KYC. 20:18:57 Same but I don't know what I'd actually use it for lol 20:19:00 The one I've looked at is only KYC above 2k or something 20:19:15 I've used bisq before but I already have non KYC btc so its not a big deal for me 20:19:18 You're also always on camera around a Monero-dispensing ATM, probably. 20:19:21 Buying Monero, probably 20:19:25 Covid 20:19:29 Masks are normal 20:19:31 Haveno? 20:19:38 Why would I buy Monero when I can mine it :) 20:19:39 bisq but Monero based 20:19:52 Looks like a cool project 20:20:05 yeah it's a fork of Bisq that uses Monero instead of Bitcoin. Still experimental though 20:20:06 aaaaaaaaa: You need to change your walk, your general body language, and your wardrobe to conceal more than just what a mask conceals, to future-proof anonymity on cameras. 20:20:37 ProjectEpsilon: Mining *is* buying Monero. You're just using electricity as an intermediary currency between fiat and Monero. 20:20:45 Where does one learn how to excel in physical anonymity? 20:20:57 CIA 20:20:58 Oh, now I'm beginning to think I want to see Haveno, too. 20:21:04 lol 20:21:38 scroll up, I linked to the reddit post on r/Monero about Haveno 20:22:00 Probably CIA spook books 20:22:38 I've used local Monero before for large transactions its pretty legit but im lucky that I live in an area that has local Monero vendors 20:22:50 I read on 4chan local Monero was requiring a picture of ID though is that true? 20:22:57 I haven't used it in awhile 20:23:30 it p2p 20:23:38 depends on what the p wants 20:23:55 What if it wants u 2p ? 20:24:07 then you go pp 20:24:27 moneromooo: took me too long :( 20:24:35 i2p? more like ineed2p 20:25:47 for eating, when hungry wait a while and eat, eat slowly until the point that you are not hungery and then stop 20:25:50 repeat 20:26:52 Elementoshi[m]: You learn it by hearing people's complaints about how the state can pierce your anonymity so you should just shut up and use Facebook, then you get paranoid and think of all the ridiculous shit they haven't even conceived yet, then you live in the woods and grow out a six-foot beard for twenty years, then you finally come back and apply all your newfound knowledge to protect your 20:26:52 anonymity. 20:26:52 found the link, thanks 20:26:52 Too bad it's on reddit. 20:26:52 I miss the days of blogs. 20:26:52 holy shit that license 20:26:52 You'd think people who are excited about something like Monero would try to minimze the legalese around their software. 20:26:52 "pay developers, not lawyers" 20:26:52 (pay them with Monero) 20:26:58 probably takes to much awareness 20:27:08 Oh, it's using bisq code. That's why it has a shitty license. 20:30:45 How much Monero does it take for someone to develop an xmr.to clone as a hidden service only 20:30:47 lol 20:31:54 0 20:32:32 I wonder how those guys even got the btc required for liquidity 20:32:39 They must've been buying it from an exchange I would assume 20:33:28 they used exchanges, yes 20:34:31 did they release their code for xmr.to? 20:34:41 They have a GitHub I never looked at it though 20:34:59 https://github.com/XMRto/ 20:36:10 donkeydonkey[m]: no 20:36:57 yeah looking through their github there is no site or server code... 20:37:15 How much Monero to buy the xmr.to code 20:37:30 who owns it? ask them/ 20:38:33 wasn't that absurdly little code? input two addresses, access 2 wallets and swap coins 20:38:51 seams like it 20:43:45 Just ask if they'll give it to you, first. 20:43:50 Maybe it's free. 20:44:01 riiight 20:44:14 could be 20:44:28 There's a lot of talk about "serving the community" and so on in the xmr.to blog. 20:44:36 I looked at one of the guys reddit accounts last night he's still active on reddit 20:44:40 aaaaaaaaa: you can just hedge with utures 20:44:48 I wonder if he's in one of these IRC channels 20:45:04 the coding effort of writing a xmr.to clone is approximately 1 week, depending on how good you want it 20:45:29 Hard part is gaining trust 20:45:43 true 20:45:49 Everyone trusts me, though. 20:45:51 ProjectEpsilon: Not very. I mean, the exit scam risk is much lower than normal exchanges. 20:46:19 yanmaani: Yeah, but the people who want to use something like xmr.to are more paranoid than the people who use Coinbase. 20:46:29 Would be interesting to look into 20:46:37 Offering it as a hidden service tor only 20:46:38 you could just allow tor, and it'd be fine 20:46:49 it's a mystery to me nobody does it 20:46:54 dunno 20:47:04 hard part is having the liquidity 20:47:16 It's difficult to comply with laws as payment processors. 20:47:17 charolastra: no, that's the easy part 20:47:23 ???? 20:47:25 you can just buy and sell both ways 20:47:27 What did I miss 20:47:32 What did you say charolastra 20:47:34 If you're just working on a hidden service, you can just go wild west and ignore the law, in theory. 20:47:37 aaaaaaaaa: charolastra - "hard part is having the liquidity" 20:47:40 do you have dozens of bitcoins laying around? 20:47:40 Oh 20:47:44 apotheon: you can do that on clearnet too lol 20:47:52 You can just set up a LLC to buy btc 20:47:55 charolastra: no, but you could buy them on an exchange, on bisq, on IRC, or whatever 20:47:55 Buy/sell 20:47:58 yanmaani: if you want to go to prison 20:47:58 that's trivial 20:47:58 Yeah 20:48:13 lol 20:48:15 You're a cryptocurrency investment fund or some shit I don't know 20:48:24 Its not that hard 20:48:26 apotheon: It's not like running it on a hidden service makes it legal. I mean, just block US IPs and you'll be fine 20:48:43 you're not selling hard drugs, you're running a crypto exchange 20:48:49 Isn't that what xmr.to did ? 20:48:52 No, running it as a hidden service means you can make it a lot harder for someone to find you. 20:48:53 But they still had pressure 20:49:13 apotheon: yes, but as long as the server is rented anonymously, that's fine. Hidden services don't actually buy you that much. 20:49:24 Yeah 20:49:25 aaaaaaaaa: I mean there's different limits, on how strict you wanna go 20:49:32 Just pay for a server with Monero 20:49:34 but there's no law preventing you from running "xmr.to but both ways" 20:49:44 Pay for a server with monero, then get it seized. 20:49:53 Backups? 20:50:03 Host it in Europe 20:50:07 Eastern Europe 20:50:36 If they seize it, they have information about how you run things, which could also help them find you, and you then have downtime every once in a while, and users might wonder whether this is the time you got compromised so that you can't be trusted any longer. 20:50:51 apotheon: Realistically, there's solutions around that. 20:51:01 There are places where you could host stuff that might work, but I haven't looked into that. 20:51:06 The easiest is to run your server as a hidden service, and then have a second server proxying the hidden service. 20:51:13 This is an engineering problem 20:51:17 yanmaani: The question is whether the other solutions are as easy as running a hidden service. 20:51:33 apotheon: depends on what you mean easy. There's stuff you need to keep in mind too doing that 20:51:41 sure 20:51:43 you can't just rent a server with your credit card and go 20:51:50 or, I mean, you can, but only once 20:51:58 Running a non-hidden-service proxy on top of a hidden service is objectively more work than just running a hidden service. 20:52:21 I don't see why you'd want to use a credit card for *any* approach. 20:52:28 hidden service: one step. hosting it maby bullet proof, with through a VPN/DDos Provider, accessing it through 7 proxies, ... alot of work 20:52:34 so, the normal thing to do here is just 20:52:35 what's the point of a clearnet proxy? 20:52:43 dunno 20:52:43 1) set up a LLC in some random offshore country 20:52:50 2) run the site without explicitly putting your name anywhere 20:52:56 better choose your "offshore" site well 20:52:59 3) not doing anything obviously illegal 20:53:27 that'll deal with 99% of your legal issues 20:53:27 3 also probably means shutting out whole national markets 20:53:53 apotheon: no, it means having a section in your ToS vaguely stating that "users are responsible for the full regulatory compliance of services" 20:54:01 You can set up an LLC in Dubai 20:54:03 0% tax 20:54:07 They don't care 20:54:09 this is how tradeogre or whatever does it 20:54:15 You set it up via a trust with a lawyer out there 20:54:23 That's getting pretty expensive. 20:54:24 So your name is not connected to the company 20:54:29 Its like $5000 USD lol 20:54:29 lawyers on retainer 20:54:33 And you get residency 20:54:35 Its really not bad 20:54:47 aaaaaaaaa: Okay, do it. 20:54:53 I look forward to your results. 20:54:54 I mean, if you're gonna do crimes, "anonymous offshore companies" won't save you 20:55:06 https://teddit.net/r/wallstreetbets/comments/mmyo0s/feds_preparing_us_for_higher_inflation_feds/ 20:55:09 No not really 20:55:09 the masses are ready 20:55:12 either lie about your name, don't give it to anyone, or do it with the basic minimum of legal compliance 20:55:16 Is it CRS? 20:55:27 I think its called CRS that applies to most "offshore bank accounts" 20:55:28 those comments 😂 20:55:28 but don't, like, commit crimes openly and hope your Dubaiese lawyers will save you 20:55:34 aaaaaaaaa: afaik 10k and you have to visit every 6 months for at least 24 hours for the residency permit to refresh 20:55:41 Yeah every 6 months 20:55:47 I saw 5k recently but I might be wrong 20:55:51 Its not crazy 20:56:00 Even 10k is not exactly huge amounts of money 20:56:04 aaaaaaaaa: the relevant thing to worry about here is whether your lawyer in Dubai will do KYC and whether he will have to break privilege when a legal investigation is starded 20:56:09 certainly doable. afaik they also have 0 crypto tax 20:56:17 again, either do crimes or don't. but if you're gonna do crimes, why even bother with the LLC? 20:56:28 For getting liquidity 20:56:35 Buying crypto from exchanges etc 20:56:52 I'm interested in how Dubai would handle requests from the US for information about people "facilitating" crimes. 20:56:56 If you just have the btc and xmr sitting around and you're able to provide the liquidity yourself you won't need to 20:56:59 aaaaaaaaa: You could just offer it both ways. "sell xmr for btc" and "sell btc for xmr". If you're running low on BTC, just raise the price. 20:57:31 From what I've heard, Dubai has a tendency to not cooperate with outside authorities or use minimal compliance in order to keep their reputation as a tax haven 20:57:39 the basic problem here is that your site would earn you a few hundred bucks per month, and you already have lots of competitors 20:57:58 aaaaaaaaa: that may be true for tax stuff, but do you think they'll shelter people who are openly doing crime? 20:58:28 I mean, a lot of the money in Dubai is coming from crime or corruption 20:58:29 why would you even need a LLC to get bitcoins? this is stupid 20:58:38 Lol 20:58:42 AFK 20:58:43 ta 20:58:46 L8r 20:58:52 a lot of the money in Anywhere is coming from crime or corruption 20:58:59 True 20:59:13 Are there a ton of competitors for hidden service non KYC crypto exchanges? 21:00:02 not really 21:00:04 aaaaaaaaa: yes, tons 21:00:12 i mean maybe they are hidden after all 21:00:19 list em please 21:00:21 for starters, any non-hidden service crypto exchange 21:00:32 changenow,tradeogre, literally just google "XMR instant exchange" 21:00:41 Yeah true you can use probit for under 10k 21:00:44 No kya 21:00:47 KYC 21:01:00 "we have a hidden service" is not really a unique selling point, you can just go to any non-KYC exchange with Tor 21:01:04 i think the non account service is what we are thinking about 21:01:21 donkeydonkey[m]: I could use I think it was ChangeNow with Tor, no problem 21:01:39 yes i have used that it has worked good 21:01:39 don't know if it's still OK though. The market seems fairly saturated. 21:02:25 I don't know why, but for some reason IRC always has people who have come up with this new innovative business model 21:02:27 "X, but with crimes" 21:02:44 "X, but with crimes, in SWITZERLAND" 21:02:56 "X, but with crimes, in THE CAYMAN ISLANDS" 21:03:00 "X, but with crimes, in SOMALIA" 21:03:06 I don't understand it. 21:06:52 'crimes' 21:08:34 a big plus of xmrto was that the btc you got was clean 21:10:00 yes, that too. "hidden service xmr exchange" is all but guaranteed to give you the filthiest coins it can find 21:10:22 without that it would not have had much usefulness 21:10:49 .faucet 21:10:50 somethingUniqueR: Zero less​ than 8? 21:10:52 also a bog reason why exchanges were only one way 21:10:53 8 21:10:54 somethingUniqueR: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000033 XMR to somethingUniqueR [d466d0f8] Wait ≈23 hrs 57 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01220838 21:11:06 .balance 21:11:07 somethingUniqueR: • Your balance is: 0.0001291 XMR (≈0.03 USD) 21:11:13 .faucet 21:11:16 nioc: Of 2 and 7​, which is 2 21:11:26 nioc: Oops you took too long. 21:11:32 wait 21:11:37 I almost had it 21:11:37 hahaha 21:11:49 anyone know what the KYC limit is for tradeogre? 21:12:11 they have a KYC limit? 21:12:16 do they? 21:12:18 do they? 21:12:26 crypto to crypto only 21:12:53 well, that doesn't prevent them from requesting KYC once your money is in there 21:13:03 never heard of it 21:13:14 happening 21:13:18 they never did any time i used them 21:13:48 based 21:13:52 doesn't mean they don't but they'd state so on site you'd think 21:14:02 Bill48105: not if they want to take your money :) 21:14:02 you'd hope 21:14:25 first rule of acquisition: once you have their money, never give it back 21:15:13 only deposit small amounts at time eh 21:15:31 you deposit all your coins without testing that's on you 21:15:51 well, you see, that's where the btc fees hit you 21:16:23 lose fees or entire balance 21:16:49 but yeah no one wants to move btc more than necessary 21:16:56 use cheap coins to test 21:19:17 ya 21:26:30 Yanmaani use profit 21:26:34 probit 21:26:49 10k withdrawal a day no kyc account sign up email only 21:27:28 That is funny though 21:27:30 "X but with crime" 21:27:58 I think it was mainly to avoid pressure from authorities causing a shutdown of the service which is what I believe happened to xmr.to 21:34:48 Shame xmr.to shut down. I used it all the time 21:38:45 is shapeshift.ai good alternative now? 21:39:21 wait, that's not how it was called 21:40:45 you probably either meant shapeshift.io (no XMR) or sideshift.ai (integrated in monerujo) 21:41:12 right, sideshift.ai 21:45:36 In the case of currency exchange, "X but with crime" would primarily be desirable in the form of "X but without surveillance". 21:45:55 (or at least "X but without effective surveillance") 21:45:59 personally i don't use those types of services, but I did test out both sideshift.ai and changenow when tryin out exchanges in both monerujo and cake. For the quantity I did, the fees for sideshift were significantly less. I want to say it was 4% for sideshift and 8% for cake. That was a month or two ago, and I know cake adjusted fees since then so it might not still be the same. Also, there are fixed fees for miner fees. So 21:46:00 if you do larger quantities, those spreads may get closer or even reverse 21:47:41 i sort of used changenow and cake interchangeably there. didn't mean to. I've just never used changenow outside of cake wallet and never used sideshift outside of monerujo 21:47:55 It seems Elementoshi[m] never answered my question . . . 21:47:56 le sad 21:50:43 apotheon: that's not what I mean - I'm saying it already exists 21:50:48 like, there's a million such sites already 21:51:14 It seems sideshift.ai sits behind CloudFlare. It uses exactly the same JavaScripty CAPTCHA-ish UI. 21:51:16 and running one whose only selling point is they have a tor hidden service and more blatantly violate the law, is not a very good business model 21:51:35 okay 21:53:39 changenow seems to use CloudFlare, too 21:53:48 It looks like shapeshift.io doesn't, though. 21:53:52 how awkward 21:54:22 "We offer more privacy-protecting Monero, but we add some free CloudFlare surveillance to improve your experience." 21:54:43 does shapeshift still require KYC, or have they dropped it already? 21:55:22 It says without KYC on the site. 21:55:24 because a selfie with a drivers license is a lot worse than cloudflare :-P 21:55:39 That might be specific to the announced "DEX Trading" thing, though. 21:56:17 Yeah, CloudFlare is better than a driver's license, but even better would be C) None Of The Above. 21:59:19 how about fixedfloat.com ? seems to be kyc-free, not sure about cloudflare though 22:01:49 looks fine, with regard to CloudFlare 22:02:23 seem to have pretty good rates for smaller amounts, compared to the competition 22:02:39 I'm not 100% sure about things being free of it. I just know that with a WebKit browser, client-side scripting turned off, through Tor, certain things show the familiar broken "turn on JS so we can make you jump through hoops then block you anyway" screen. 22:02:40 i assume we're talking specifically about "instant" exchanges, otherwise TradeOgre is probably the best bet 22:03:13 I don't see Monero on fixedfloat, though. 22:03:24 really? i do 22:03:58 the first five options are labeled "popular currencies" and monero is the fifth of those for me 22:04:12 or of course just type either 'mon' or 'xmr' into the field 22:04:42 Ah, if I turn on scripting and look at the dropdown list, I see it. 22:05:00 funny, if i turn off scripting the list is empty 22:05:11 right 22:05:26 The only cryptocurrencies visible with scripting turned off are further down the page. 22:05:38 Those are "most recent trades", though, I notice. 22:06:02 Well . . . AFK again. Meatspace is busy today. 22:06:02 ta 22:06:10 you can always use their API if you don't want browser scripts :) 22:06:25 then you can just transact using curl :D 22:46:35 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/222 22:46:42 Triptych research and optimizations - a new CCS proposal for Sarang, an MRL researcher, is open for comment/feedback! 22:49:23 does the monerod process need to be synced to generate a wallet via monero-wallet-cli? 22:50:00 ive run into a few cases where it cant find the wallet after im sure ive generated one, so trying to understand where and how its stored etc.. 22:52:06 those are seperated questions. not sure if it has the be synced, but guess not. and you'll find them in the default location, depending on your OS 22:55:26 default location being ~/.bitmonero ? 22:55:39 yes 22:55:52 you don't need a synced daemon to generate a wallet 23:03:50 ty 23:14:53 er, they always go into the current directory for me, not ~/.bitmonero or any other fixed place 23:18:41 with the GUI? 23:19:14 with the CLI, which is what monero_amigo asked about 23:24:27 oh, sorry 23:25:25 hm that must be whats happening to me, i see it being created in my cwd 23:25:42 and if you call monero-wallet-cli in another dir it will not find it 23:26:15 potentially has something to do with a lack of config? 23:26:29 i built this from source and just copied the binaries /usr/bin 23:27:10 maby there's a flag for it. or specify the absolut path 23:27:22 don't think there is any config for this, you would need to specify the full path if that's what you want 23:27:40 if you don't remember where you put it, but do remember what you called it, try the `locate` command 23:27:49 if you remember neither, you could try `locate -r '\.keys$'` 23:28:50 if locate doesn't find it, `find` definitely will, but will take a while. 23:29:10 e.g. `sudo find / -name 'WalletName'` or `sudo find / -name '*.keys'` 23:31:06 nice tip ndorf thanks 23:33:55 figure i'll throw another question out here. Is the recovery key truly all you need to backup? Should I backup these files too? any other info? when i run `monero-wallet-cli --generate-from-keys test`, it asks for "standard address", "secret spend key", and "secret view key". These are not really specified clearly from the output of the wallet generation 23:34:26 like whats the secret spend key? 23:34:40 and im reading theres a public and secret view key 23:34:49 the mnemonic seed phrase is all you need to restore the wallet, but you would use the --restore-from-seed flag, not --generate-from-keys 23:34:55 ah i see 23:35:26 cool 23:35:40 however, there is metadata, like the destinations of your outgoing transactions, that will be lost if you restore from seed (or from keys, or whatever) 23:35:54 if those are important to you, then back up the files 23:36:30 i think in most cases it's not important, but YMMV 23:36:57 all good to know, thanks again 23:37:02 np 23:37:43 Can't one just use an alias to specify where to place the wallet when setting it up, and use that alias to find it every time you open it? 23:38:08 . . . or would you have to manually place the wallet before using an alias to open it? 23:38:12 hmm 23:38:21 the latter 23:38:34 okay 23:38:37 but yes, you can certainly make an alias pointing at your wallet after you create it 23:39:01 Is there no way when runnning monero-wallet-cli to tell it where to put the wallet file? 23:39:11 (I'm not on the right machine to check.) 23:39:16 it doesn't appear so, it lacks the --wallet-dir option that monero-wallet-rpc has 23:39:22 I see. 23:42:15 It looks like there are options for specifying wallet name that should take an absolute path, but they're different for generating vs. opening. 23:42:28 Well . . . afk now; time to eat. Ta. 23:43:07 the options are different, but they should all take a path the same way 23:45:04 hm, except for --restore-from-seed. that one takes no argument :\ 23:55:20 How can I recover my wallet using the GUI wallet using the 12 word Trezor recovery key? 23:56:39 fyi 23:56:40 > As it should be considering forknote was the base here which was/is a forkable version of ByteCoin — and monero came from bitmonero which came from ByteCoin soooo kissing cousins 23:56:47 trtl 23:57:04 guy got super raged when i suggested they derived from xmr