00:00:12 <usernetinternet[> selsta: lol i saw that, 12 hours per day including weekends😅 maybe they are using some of the proposal funds to buy stimulants😂
00:03:13 <nioc> hopefully everyone is improving the shitty code that they run on :D
00:20:19 * usernetinternet[ uploaded an image: (347KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/boZOvopTTsvsRhVvgEmGIuMP/1618184901300.jpg >
00:20:38 <usernetinternet[> Monero citadel
00:22:00 <jonah_xd[m]> pepe moment
01:32:57 <vnkctqssufvu> Look on the bright side. At least you don't need to obsess over signs of life from FUK now.
01:34:11 <litecoingent[m]> Is anyone aware of new hardware wallets being worked on that will support Monero? I hate the Ledger.
01:34:35 <selsta> Trezor
01:35:11 <litecoingent[m]> Yeah but doesn't the Trezor lack a secure element?
01:35:23 <selsta> I don't know.
01:54:51 * donkeydonkey[m] uploaded an image: (125KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/OJUwRdyLKRtwzQfoXcgPHPHa/Screenshot%20from%202021-04-11%2018-53-56.png >
02:01:46 <kloinka[m]> is there an issue with GUI v0.17.2.0 and Ledger Nano S? Testing and getting "Unable to open device 1:11415"
02:08:12 <kloinka[m]> Updated Ledger Monero App...All OK now :)
02:11:35 <selsta> sorry, ledger keeps version locking their app
02:11:49 <selsta> which is a bit annoying for users
02:12:55 <kloinka[m]> Not a huge issue...got used to the Ledger App dance 😁
02:14:38 <kloinka[m]> Cake mob wallet flawlessly connected to my updated node👍️
02:16:20 <ThaHandyman> kloink
02:27:52 <cstfrqde[m]> Hi again, another somewhat technical question. I have fully synched node (thanks moneromooo), and there are some transfers out that I expected to find, but do not see (on that same day, by contrast, there were transfers in). When I open my wallet it says there are key images missing, which I need to import. Could the absence of certain key images make your balance appear higher than it is? This is, I should add, a
02:27:52 <cstfrqde[m]> watch-only wallet.
02:30:02 <cstfrqde[m]> <cstfrqde[m] "Hi again, another somewhat techn"> And, relatedly, what happens if you fail to import your key images?
02:39:53 <selsta> cstfrqde[m]: yes, without key images change will be added on top of your balance
02:40:30 <cstfrqde[m]> selsta: does this mean that if you are missing a key image your balance is _greater_ than what your wallet shows, or less than?
02:40:44 <endor00[m]> Smaller than what it shows
02:41:24 <endor00[m]> It will think that some outputs are still unspent, when in fact they are spent (so you don't own them anymore)
02:42:34 <cstfrqde[m]> got it, makes sense. I guess that means that you just might not be able to spend as is supposedly in your wallet. the absence of key images doesn't prevent you from spending coins you already have?
02:43:07 <endor00[m]> Yeah, you can still spend other outputs just fine
02:43:33 <endor00[m]> But if you try to include a spent output in your tx, it will get rejected
02:43:39 <cstfrqde[m]> Right. And key images that you don't have are lost forever, presumably?
02:44:58 <cstfrqde[m]> or is there a way to retrieve them by rescanning the blockchain? This was a fresh blockchain download, I should add.
02:45:49 <endor00[m]> I'm not sure how this would work for an offline wallet, but an online wallet will definitely pick them up as spent
02:45:59 <endor00[m]> (when you rescan the chain)
02:47:03 <endor00[m]> (Doesn't matter when you downloaded the blockchain, for this scenario)
02:48:52 <cstfrqde[m]> got it. Yeah, hm. Is there some documentation that might point me in the right direction? a quick search does not bring up anything immediately relevant
03:01:20 <cstfrqde[m]> Has anyone switched over from using the old-school offline wallet/watch-only addresses to a hardware wallet? If so, did you have to import key images then, as well?
03:18:18 <cstfrqde[m]> <endor00[m] "(when you rescan the chain)"> yeah, quite sure that rescanning the chain does restore key images... just rescanned the whole chain and the previous debits that I could see are now no longer there. I guess the best thing to do is to copy over the blockchain to a USB, import it into the offline computer and then rescan the chain there. Just not sure how to copy over that updated wallet state back to the online
03:18:18 <cstfrqde[m]> computer.
03:19:39 <endor00[m]> well, once you've updated the offline wallet you will be able to export the key images again
03:21:32 <cstfrqde[m]> I am an idiot... answer was right there the whole time. just `export_key_images` on offline wallet and import them. Sorry for wasting your time
04:52:02 <Bill48105> on bright side those netsplits don't seem to cause Wallet to excess flood anymore so guess my update worked.. fingers crossed eh
04:53:11 <somethingUniqueR> .faucet
04:53:12 <Wallet> somethingUniqueR: Of 8 & 7, which is ​7
04:53:15 <somethingUniqueR> 7
04:53:16 <Wallet> somethingUniqueR: @bonuspot tipped 0.000005 XMR to somethingUniqueR [02821b10] Wait ≈23 hrs 59 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01542177
04:53:24 <somethingUniqueR> .balace
04:53:32 <somethingUniqueR> .balance
04:53:33 <Wallet> somethingUniqueR: • Your balance is: 0.0007978 XMR (≈0.26 USD)
04:57:47 <Bill48105> lambo soon
05:28:26 <oceanus[m]> wtf m8
06:59:22 <hmmp> is this legit https://www.monero.how/how-to-safely-hold-monero-in-cold-storage
06:59:41 <azy> yes
07:03:05 <sech1> "How can I spend from my cold storage wallet?" that part is bad. There is a way to spend from cold wallet without connecting it to the internet
07:03:25 <sech1> you prepare a tx on the view-only wallet and then sign the tx offline
08:56:14 * ieatglueinthegul uploaded a video: (15233KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/halogen.city/846f8e51f70f59b845398c4daf0b4462be8b47cf/VID_20210412_110121_826.mp4 >
09:00:47 <Mochi101> ieatglueinthegul, did you post that so we could all feel sorry for him because he's a nutcase?
09:01:26 <pixelized[m]> 😂 i thought the clip was kind of entertaining
09:01:34 <pixelized[m]> mcafee being a funny boi
09:01:35 <pixelized[m]> and accurate
09:01:49 <xrv0[m]> <ieatglueinthegul "VID_20210412_110121_826.mp4"> Hilarious
09:01:54 <azy> i love mcaffee
09:02:12 <azy> bad motherfucker, at something close to 70 years old too
09:03:45 <ieatglueinthegul> <Mochi101 "ieatglueinthegulag, did you post"> Filtered
09:05:24 <xrv0[m]> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKgf5PaBzyg
09:58:35 <raptly[m]> T
10:02:30 <biscuitsboars[m]> Any opensource place alternate to  that as all top coins. I like to buy ARRR Directly than exchange with btc or monero or any rubykube instance you know
10:05:46 <moneromooo> Hi bot.
10:39:27 <cstfrqde[m]> Hello again!  So after doing `export_key_images all <filename>` from my offline wallet and importing them into my watch-only wallet using `import_key_images` all, and rescanning the blockchain, my wallet still says "Some owned outputs have missing key images - import_key_images needed"
10:43:42 <dEBRUYNE> Did you try import_key_images <filename>
10:43:46 <dEBRUYNE> ?
10:44:20 <cstfrqde[m]> Sorry for the typo in my message. Yes, that is what I did.
10:49:39 <dEBRUYNE> Can you have a look at this comment? https://www.reddit.com/r/monerosupport/comments/mdmgph/i_cant_sign_a_transaction_offline/gsdz5ne/
10:49:42 <cstfrqde[m]> 1. offline computer: `export_key_images all <filename>`
10:49:42 <cstfrqde[m]> 2. copy over `<filename>` to online computer and then do `import_key_images <filename>`
10:49:42 <cstfrqde[m]> 3. online computer: `rescan_bc` (and `rescan_spent`, though I am not sure the latter was relevant in this case)
10:52:04 <cstfrqde[m]> Hm, so this wallet is years old. I've successfully made transfers with it in the past. Having said that, I guess it couldn't hurt to try the `import/export_outputs` thing.
11:00:55 <cstfrqde[m]> More serious problem: when I try to open my offline wallet I get `Error: failed to load wallet: basic_string::_replace_aux` (sorry if there are any typos there -- transcribing this by-hand)
11:02:00 <cstfrqde[m]> (NB: an older version `wallet_file` works fine. Also, still have access to my seed etc
11:06:33 <moneromooo> It does that if you use a previous monero version than the one you save it with. Don't do that.
11:07:47 <moneromooo> Actually, it might be a bug if you're on mac. Are you on mac ?
11:10:27 <cstfrqde[m]> Got it. Does the permanently corrupt the file? because I am now trying to use the same version as I did previously and I am getting the same error
11:11:05 <cstfrqde[m]> No, not on Mac. Linux.
11:13:15 <moneromooo> It does not corrupt the file, it just fails to load it. Just use the most recent version.
11:14:12 <cstfrqde[m]> <moneromooo "It does that if you use a previo"> My understanding of what you wrote here is that I should be using the same version.
11:16:48 <moneromooo> Same version is always better, yes.
11:20:26 <cstfrqde[m]> I have tried both same version and most recent version of wallet software to open the file and I get the same problem.
11:20:42 <moneromooo> What arch ?
11:21:13 <moneromooo> There was a bug with platforms where sizeof(long) is 32 (some mac at least).
11:21:31 <moneromooo> er, 4, not 32
11:21:46 <cstfrqde[m]> x86_64
11:22:30 <moneromooo> So you're claiming you saved that wallet cache with some monero version,and that same version can't open it again, right ?
11:23:08 <cstfrqde[m]> Yes. Additionally, if I try to open an earlier snapshot of that wallet file with the same command, it works.
11:24:05 <moneromooo> Before saving it last, what did you do (ie, what got saved in it that was not saved the previous time) ?
11:30:47 <cstfrqde[m]> I think I figured it out (thanks to your line of questions 😃). Could it be related to the read/write permissions on the file? For a somewhat unrelated reason I was messing with these.
11:33:59 <cstfrqde[m]> Hm, that's not it. I've changed them those permissions to be the same as the file that works, and I get still get the same error. I don't think I did anything else other than run `export_key_images`
12:16:32 <cstfrqde[m]> This actually isn't the critical thing for me. I have my seed, so I can regenerate the wallet file. But, if I do that, I am wondering whether there is a way to retrieve old key images for the offline wallet.
12:17:41 <moneromooo> Key images are deterministic. You can regenerate them if you lose them.
13:15:46 <gkdzvruwn> There are multiple psychological hooks to keep Monero community members in place. Here is one:
13:15:46 <gkdzvruwn> https://vimeo.com/272691039
13:15:46 <gkdzvruwn> Notice that Scientologists don't stand on street corners saying "Would you like to talk about our Lord and Saviour, Xenu?"
13:15:46 <gkdzvruwn> Put yourself instead in the shoes of someone who spent $10,000 and 2-3 years of their life on their courses
13:15:46 <gkdzvruwn> And you get a bunch of bad sci-fi - you have two choices:
13:15:46 <gkdzvruwn> - either swallow a very bitter pill that you wasted a pile of money and a portion of your life
13:15:46 <gkdzvruwn> - or swallow the sci-fi, and from that point on, you will swallow _anything_ they tell you.
13:15:47 <gkdzvruwn> In the cult trade that's called "insider doctrine".
13:15:47 <gkdzvruwn> Would you like to talk about our Lord and Saviour of NASA, Howard Chu?
13:15:48 <gkdzvruwn> https://medium.com/@crypto_ryo/senior-nasa-engineer-calls-out-howard-chu-hyc-symas-monero-developer-on-being-a-fraud-db0b46688041
13:16:39 <clavi> ah the FUD is coming in
13:25:33 <mechanic41turk[m> yeah keep the fud coming, I still gotta accumulate in lower prices.
13:35:10 <usernetinternet[> Expect nuclear levels of fud in the coming days from shorters and glowies
13:35:29 <mechanic41turk[m> nice
13:37:27 <ieatglueinthegul> Hasnt XMR been the most shorted crypto on the market for months now
13:39:17 <Mochi101> is it?
13:41:43 <rupee[m]> .8ball is monero heavily shorted?
13:41:44 <Wallet> rupee[m]: NO
13:41:51 <rupee[m]> ^
13:42:53 <kloinka[m]> Don't height-shame Moreano
13:43:40 <mechanic41turk[m> morono the best
13:46:39 <kloinka[m]> moreno is Kaiju!
13:56:17 <usernetinternet[> ieatglueinthegulag: yeah short interest on monero is super high, but a lot got liquidated recently
13:56:33 <usernetinternet[> Especially on the xmr/btc pair
13:56:49 <rupee[m]> where do you see that usernetinternet ?
13:57:11 <rupee[m]> I see that shorts have increased on bitfinex and that some shorts got liquided in futures
13:58:14 <usernetinternet[> At work so i have no links but search monero short interest on google and you will probably find it
13:58:46 <rupee[m]> Are you relying on the bitfinex data to say "short interest on monero is super high", but relying on the futures data to say "a lot got liquidated"?
13:59:43 <rupee[m]> hmm. https://shortxmr.com/
14:00:22 <usernetinternet[> Shorters always double down kek
14:04:19 <ieatglueinthegul> Fook em
14:47:43 <lumane[m]> Is Monero going to be worth a lot of money?
14:48:51 <PapuaHardyNet> morono is my favorite term
14:50:39 <mechanic41turk[m> <lumane[m] "Is Monero going to be worth a lo"> 'bout tree fiddy
14:51:17 <lumane[m]> How much is that?
14:52:27 <PapuaHardyNet> 3.50
14:58:00 <selsta> >Monero is developed using open-source protocol, which is based on RandomX.
15:00:24 * usernetinternet[ uploaded an image: (251KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/XfSxekOpUCzharTUsQGexnbG/1618226251845.jpg >
15:08:43 <cstfrqde[m]> <moneromooo "Key images are deterministic. Yo"> I see. How does this work with offline wallets, though?
15:11:52 <xrv0[m]> Deterministic means they can be derived from the seed
15:22:49 <cstfrqde[m]> Right, but based on this explanation of key images (https://monerodocs.org/cryptography/asymmetric/key-image/) it seems like in order to regenerate them you need a local copy of the blockchain. Specifically, `x` and `P` refer to transaction outputs.
15:32:40 <gumman> .faucet
15:32:41 <Wallet> gumman: Square is how​ many sides?
15:32:43 <gumman> 4
15:32:43 <Wallet> gumman: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000006 XMR to gumman [f58762c7] Wait ≈23 hrs 55 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01542117
15:32:47 <gumman> thank you
15:37:54 <cstfrqde[m]> In this case, I've successfully imported all the key images from my offline wallet into my online wallet but the latter still says there are key images missing.
15:38:37 <moneromooo> How did you export those key images ?
15:40:29 <cstfrqde[m]> from my offline wallet `export_key_images all <filename>`
15:41:13 <moneromooo> How did you export outputs before that ?
15:42:15 <cstfrqde[m]> I don't know. It's a pretty old wallet. I haven't done this for quite a while.
15:43:23 <moneromooo> Did you receive send/anything since that time ?
15:43:30 <moneromooo> (from/to that wallet)
15:46:39 <cstfrqde[m]> I am not exactly sure but I am definitely surprised at how old my most recent sends are according to my watch-only wallet.
15:46:42 <clavi> rupee[m]: >shortxmr.com
15:46:51 <clavi> why do they paint gains in red color, what did they mean by this...
15:47:03 <moneromooo> Well, if you're not sure, don't skip steps.
15:47:21 <moneromooo> Just do the whole thing, especially if skipping some things fails.
15:47:29 <cstfrqde[m]> I really don't mean to skip steps... I am not sure what steps you are referring to.
15:47:36 <rupee[m]> <clavi "why do they paint gains in red c"> if you're short and the price goes up, it's a loss, not a gain.
15:47:48 <moneromooo> Export outs, import them, export key images, import them.
15:48:13 <clavi> too bad for them ig
15:48:30 <cstfrqde[m]> OK, got it. Will do. Thank you.
15:48:55 <moneromooo> With the all keyword for both exports.
15:49:06 <cstfrqde[m]> 👍️
15:58:51 <cstfrqde[m]> error: `Failed to import outputsstd::bad_alloc`
16:02:40 <moneromooo> Then bug.
16:03:38 <moneromooo> Does the tests pass ?
16:05:36 <moneromooo> The cold_signing functional tests, in particular.
16:09:07 <selsta> cstfrqde[m]: are you using v0.17.2.0 on both systems?
16:10:50 <cstfrqde[m]> Haven't run the test suite. And selsta, no, the offline computer uses an old version of monero-wallet-cli
16:11:10 <selsta> you have to use the same version on both systems
16:14:21 <moneromooo> Jesus. You said you were using the same version above, did you not.
16:15:02 <cstfrqde[m]> I apologize, I misunderstood you. I thought you asked whether I was using the same version of the software which I used to create the offline wallet originally.
16:15:07 <moneromooo> So that explains all your wallet loading stuff.
16:16:04 <cstfrqde[m]> Got it. My mistake. Thank you.
16:16:56 <selsta> was almost worried that we had to do another release lol
16:18:31 <moneromooo> I'll catch that OOM and add a message to complain about versions.
16:18:52 <cstfrqde[m]> Part of the problem is I use nixOS, which is always a little behind on releases. So my online computer is still on 17.1.9 but the version I downloaded from getmonero is 17.2. Sorry about that. But yeah, a clearer error message would be quite helpful.
16:20:09 <moneromooo> I meant for the wallet cache.
16:20:50 <moneromooo> For the output/key image files, we have a version number, maybe it did not get updated.
16:21:06 <moneromooo> Or maybe it's a real bug.
16:26:37 <melona> hello
16:26:47 <clavi> hi
16:27:02 <melona> hyc how to mine on smarphone
16:27:20 <hyc> download the android build of the software
16:27:23 <melona> if i dont disable jit monero crash
16:27:34 <hyc> what phone?
16:27:45 <melona> xiaomi 8 or 9
16:27:57 <hyc> dunno. works fine for me on Huawei P10
16:28:23 <melona> if i dont do randomx-umask=8 i dont remember well...
16:28:25 <melona> crashs
16:28:41 <melona> so if i disable jit works but is useless
16:28:49 <melona> right?
16:28:59 <hyc> probably pointless, yeah
16:29:27 <melona> maybe need huge page enabled?
16:29:32 <selsta> https://github.com/tevador/RandomX/pull/202
16:29:35 <selsta> this one related?
16:29:43 <hyc> huge page is only an optimization, doesn't prevent basic function
16:29:57 <hyc> my phone kernel doesn't even have hugepages
16:30:24 <hyc> selsta maybe
16:30:34 <melona> selsta i added and compile but nothing changed!
16:30:41 <melona> same crashs
16:31:02 <melona> the only solution is jit disable
16:31:03 <melona> so no solution
16:32:55 <cstfrqde[m]>  moneromooo  I didn't see any error message complaining about version mismatches, if that's what you mean. I also was able to import key images. just successfully exported/imported outputs and imported key images. Thank you again.
16:33:32 <moneromooo> So, to be clear, it worked now with the full set of steps ?
16:37:28 <hyc> melona: what are you compiling with?
16:37:32 <hyc> what version of tools?
16:37:42 <melona> docker
16:38:09 <melona> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/blob/master/Dockerfile.android
16:38:55 <hyc> this uses clang, as I suspected. the patch selsta linked is currently only written for gcc
16:39:13 <hyc> I believe the patch will need a tweak for clang but haven't looked into it
16:39:25 <melona> hmm
16:40:05 <hyc> https://github.com/tevador/RandomX/pull/202#pullrequestreview-633749956
16:40:45 <melona> good let'c
16:46:37 <cstfrqde[m]> <moneromooo "So, to be clear, it worked now w"> Yes, it worked. Thanks so much.
16:48:19 <fibonacci> .balance
16:48:19 <Wallet> fibonacci: • Your balance is: 0.00071 XMR (≈0.23 USD)
16:49:54 <melona> hyc https://github.com/tevador/RandomX/pull/202/commits/2ba7df2844df1f12d5b820d62c992777a6e82d50
16:50:03 <melona> he answered
16:54:09 <sech1> try to compile xmrig in termux, it should work
16:55:30 <melona> hyc are u here
17:13:05 <clavi> sech1: what hashrate do you even get on a phone
17:13:22 <fibonacci> .balance
17:13:23 <Wallet> fibonacci: • Your balance is: 0.00071 XMR (≈0.23 USD)
17:13:29 <fibonacci> .soak all
17:13:30 <Wallet> fibonacci soaked 0.00004 XMR (0.00071 Total) upon 15 users @ 918 minutes moneromooo Bi​ll48105 Wallet donkeydonkey[m] rupee[m] hmmp clavi stev3 selsta Mochi101 sech1 gkdzvruwn dEBRUYNE PapuaHardyNet hyc @bonuspot (0.00011 scraps) [13f09faf]
17:14:29 <Mochi101> oh my
17:14:34 <Mochi101> Thanks fibonacci
17:15:07 <sech1> .balance
17:15:07 <Wallet> sech1: • Your balance is: 0.00485065 XMR (≈1.56 USD)
17:16:01 <abcdefg_3rssi> for running a monero node on a vps do i need to download the entire blockchain or can i sync with the prune command?
17:16:59 <abcdefg_1rssi> oh shit im in here on two different nicknames
17:17:06 <Mochi101> You can sync with prune abcdefg_1rssi
17:17:11 <abcdefg_1rssi> thanks
17:17:52 <abcdefg_1rssi> huh weird
17:18:01 <selsta> abcdefg_3rssi: make sure to use v0.17.2.0 as it contains fresh checkpoints that will result in faster sync
17:20:04 <abcdefg_1rssi> yea i just updated on my laptop
17:20:06 <abcdefg_1rssi> to the new version
17:20:32 <abcdefg_1rssi> ill make sure to get the new version for the server too im just setting it up now
17:20:35 <abcdefg_1rssi> playing around with it
17:28:38 <abcdefg_1rssi> ./monerod --sync-pruned-blocks is the correct command right or is it --prune-blockchain
17:29:24 <selsta> abcdefg_1rssi: --prune-blockchain is for pruning
17:29:49 <abcdefg_1rssi> so to initially start and sync the node I start it with that command right
17:29:51 <abcdefg_1rssi> selsta
17:29:56 <selsta> yes
17:29:59 <abcdefg_1rssi> thanks
17:30:26 <selsta> --sync-pruned-blocks allows you to get pruned blocks from peers which might result in less bandwidth used
17:30:31 <selsta> at least that's how I understand it
17:30:48 <selsta> without it you get a full block and prune it locally after receiving
17:31:11 <abcdefg_1rssi> so prune blockchain still syncs the entire blockchain but then prunes it?
17:31:15 <abcdefg_1rssi> so it doesnt save time just saves space?
17:31:40 <selsta> yes
17:32:39 <abcdefg_1rssi> ty
17:48:48 <bigslim[m]> Monero making some nice moves this past week on the charts
17:49:24 <pixelized[m]> yeah
17:49:37 <pixelized[m]> do you think it'll keep it up?
17:50:16 <abcdefg_1rssi> .val xmr
17:50:16 <Wallet> abcdefg_1rssi: XMR -> USD • Avg: ≈320.02 • ccc/OKEX: ≈$319.79 24HΔ: 2.89% Vol: 489.74K [0m] • cmc: ≈$320.25 24HΔ: 5.38% 7DΔ: 20.33442% [< 27m]
17:50:24 <abcdefg_1rssi> might dip
17:50:27 <abcdefg_1rssi> already kind of starting
17:50:38 <abcdefg_1rssi> high was like above 340
17:51:08 <abcdefg_1rssi> im stacking monero so i hope it dips a little so i can buy more
17:51:16 <abcdefg_1rssi> either way i will buy more though i think it has a lot more to gain
17:52:13 <pixelized[m]> i hope you're right
17:52:16 <pixelized[m]> well, it definitely has a lot more to gain
17:52:33 <pixelized[m]> but i'm uncertain about chonky dips
17:52:56 <abcdefg_1rssi> with the crazy bullrun crypto is in right now i think people are starting to realize xmr is undervalued
17:53:10 <abcdefg_1rssi> its just difficult to buy on typical exchanges so it hasn't had the crazy gains like other cryptos had
17:53:10 <Quotes> CRYPTO IS NOT CRYPTOCURRENCY ಠ_ಠ ~ IT REFERS TO CRYPTOGRAPHY, abcdefg_1rssi
17:53:13 <abcdefg_1rssi> my thought at least
17:53:47 <abcdefg_1rssi> i doubt it dips much at all unless btc crashes
17:53:47 <lord_fomo[m]> i use $crypto
18:25:05 <apotheon> $crypto is better than crypto for referring to cryptocurrency
18:25:19 <apotheon> I think crypto$ might be better still, though, because it doesn't look like a Perl variable.
18:25:36 <angrymonkeyboi[m> $crypto reminds me of php, and that makes me want to throw up
18:26:23 <apotheon> even worse than Perl
18:26:29 <apotheon> make it crypto$
18:26:34 <moneroist> is CLSAG implemented last year incompatible with DLSAG?
18:34:06 <gingeropolous> i like that. crypto$. ima do that
18:34:36 <hyc> cryptobucks
18:35:22 <pixelized[m]> crypto$ doesn't have a very nice ring to it imo
18:35:27 <pixelized[m]> might as well just go with cryptocurrency in that case
18:35:34 <gingeropolous> eh, for me its more for typing
18:35:45 <gingeropolous> i don't talk out loud to humans about crypto$
18:36:02 <pixelized[m]> also, crypto$ looks like the way a bitter american-style liberal might refer to the plural of cryptocurrencies
18:36:18 <pixelized[m]> kind of like how open source fanatics refer to microsoft as m$
18:39:24 <as2333> micro$hit is a fine spelling for 'microsoft'
18:40:09 <moneromooo> crypto$ makes me think petro dollars, makes me think hidden dollars for the govt slush fund used to prop up dictators around the world.
19:01:13 <patix0331[m]> .
19:01:27 <patix0331[m]>  *
19:03:12 <apotheon> 18:40 < moneromooo> crypto$ makes me think petro dollars, makes me think hidden dollars for the govt slush fund used to prop up dictators around the world.
19:03:16 <apotheon> hiding in plain sight
19:03:20 <apotheon> confusing the gub'mint
19:03:31 <apotheon> You've just convinced me that there's value in using "crypto$".
19:16:50 <PapuaHardyNet> crypto is cryptocurrency
19:17:27 <hyc> crypto is cryptosporidium
19:17:33 <PapuaHardyNet> surely you wouldn't want me to call it "blockchain tech", now, do you?
19:21:03 <apotheon> crypto is short for cryptography, which is why it's used as the prefix to cryptocurrency -- a cryptographic currency
19:21:37 <apotheon> but whatever
19:21:45 <apotheon> It's not like meaning matters.
19:22:22 <Mochi101> It's all cryptic to me.
19:22:44 <apotheon> that too
19:22:55 <apotheon> meaning becomes meaningless
19:23:08 <apotheon> There are things we can't just say and expect to be understood any longer.
19:23:47 <apotheon> "hacker" and "capitalist" and "freedom"
19:24:03 <apotheon> They've lost meanings that used to be common, and no new words have arisen to take their place.
19:24:59 <Mochi101> apotheon, don't say those words when as2333 is around.
19:25:28 <apotheon> har
19:25:35 <apotheon> at least two of them
19:25:45 <apotheon> Is there danger in saying "hacker"?
19:26:35 <as2333> I hear that hackers use symetric cryptocurrency to encrypt secret stuff
19:28:00 <abcdefg_1rssi> .val xmr
19:28:00 <Wallet> abcdefg_1rssi: XMR -> USD • Avg: ≈319.57 • ccc/LAToken: ≈$318.88 24HΔ: -2.7% Vol: 521.27K [< 2m] • cmc: ≈$320.26 24HΔ: 2.22% 7DΔ: 20.29032% [< 20m]
19:29:13 <apotheon> Mochi101: You sommoned as2333.
19:29:15 <apotheon> err
19:29:22 <apotheon> s/som/sum/
19:29:39 <apotheon> wtf, apotheon
19:31:31 <as2333> I've been sommoned
19:32:01 <PapuaHardyNet> so I just heard about BlockFi
19:32:10 <apotheon> sorry
19:32:23 <PapuaHardyNet> hahahah
19:32:30 <apotheon> Have you heard of https://sovereignstreet.art/ yet?
19:32:57 <apotheon> I think BlockFi might result in very complicated tax filings.
19:33:12 <PapuaHardyNet> not if you convert it back into moonero, right?
19:33:59 <apotheon> If BlockFi's thing is liquidity pool stuff (I don't know if it is, but if so) you probably trigger a taxable event for every trade with the liquidity you provide.
19:34:21 <apotheon> I'm kinda guessing.
19:34:27 <apotheon> IANATL
19:36:12 <PapuaHardyNet> sidenote, bisq has some UI breaking bugs in its current version if you install it from AUR
19:37:11 <apotheon> ouch
19:37:18 <apotheon> It's a good thing I don't use AUR!
19:37:45 <apotheon> Of course, bisq doesn't install at all with pkg_add.
19:38:42 <PapuaHardyNet> "Although Bitcoin and Litecoin excel in most aspects, they do have a significant weakness — fungibility. Fungibility means that certain items could be mutually interchangeable. For example, one dollar bill is equal to another one dollar bill. One 5kg (999.99) fine gold bar could be interchanged for another 5kg (999.99) gold bar — in practical terms, it’s trading one exact item for a different
19:38:48 <PapuaHardyNet> exact item. Some may argue that Bitcoin and Litecoin are fungible due to 1 LTC = 1 LTC, but unfortunately — in the real world, that’s not the case."
19:38:51 <PapuaHardyNet> -- https://litecoin-foundation.org/the-battle-for-sound-money/
19:40:24 <apotheon> yep
19:40:27 <apotheon> seems about right
19:40:29 <apotheon> so far
19:40:48 <apotheon> What is the future of Litecoin?
19:42:15 <PapuaHardyNet> i have no idea, but I hope it eclipses btc
19:44:43 <hyc> why would it eclipse btc? it's a clone of btc
19:48:22 <PapuaHardyNet> radically low fees makes it actually usable
19:49:21 <apotheon> That's what BCH is for, though.
19:50:02 <apotheon> One thing I can say for Litecoin is that it seems better than BSV.
19:50:23 <Lyza> BCH :-|
19:52:27 <B0g4r7> Litecoin was supposed to be ASIC resistant, but that resistance was overcome.
19:52:46 <apotheon> right
19:53:02 <apotheon> not really filling me with confidence in its future
19:53:58 <apotheon> Hilariously, ASICs are supposed to make operations more efficient, but the economics of BTC just result in more ASICs running, so the efficiency is overcome by volume.
19:54:38 <apotheon> . . . and by the need to manufacture more special-purpose processors that get replaced every few years without even getting shoved into secondary use because they're so specialized.
19:55:32 <PapuaHardyNet> Surely you guys understand that the bitcoin forks and clones using the same name make people loathe oto use it?
19:55:44 <PapuaHardyNet> BCH, BSV, then the other forks of these two
19:56:05 <PapuaHardyNet> I wonder how these forks still exist smh
19:56:40 <apotheon> BCH because it's not as scammy as BSV and people can actually use it for transactions; BSV because it's propped up by a weird cult of personality
19:56:46 <apotheon> That, at least, is my impression.
19:56:59 <PapuaHardyNet> see, I know that because I follow bitcoin drama
19:57:09 <PapuaHardyNet> newcomers will avoid it entirely
19:57:32 <apotheon> maybe
19:57:39 <apotheon> then they'll come to Monero
19:57:40 <apotheon> yay
19:57:55 <apotheon> moar money
19:58:43 <PapuaHardyNet> I was recently reading about the creation of bearer bonds, and how it allowed money to flow freely in Europe, while USA languaished in their Bretton Woods regulations
19:59:08 <PapuaHardyNet> bearer bonds were basically monero for that time
19:59:08 <apotheon> fun
19:59:28 <PapuaHardyNet> fungible, easy to store and carry around, and didn't depend on regulations
19:59:47 <PapuaHardyNet> also, the owners of the bearer bonds earned an interest by holding (HODLing) it
20:00:12 <apotheon> as long as someone didn't default
20:00:25 <apotheon> (har)
20:01:33 <PapuaHardyNet> nah, Europe was flush with cash back then
20:02:01 <PapuaHardyNet> All that illegal money from Russia and Nazis stashing their money so others can't get to it
20:02:11 <PapuaHardyNet> all that money went into Switzerland banks
20:02:24 <apotheon> I see.
20:02:29 <apotheon> right
20:02:33 <apotheon> forgot about that
20:02:43 <apotheon> (not having been in Europe at the time)
20:02:59 <PapuaHardyNet> never too late to go to Europe
20:03:55 <charolastra> not anymore. swiss banking fully cooperates with US/EU
20:05:45 <PapuaHardyNet> Anyway, the point I was going to make was this: bearer bonds helped not only the rich and powerful, and the arguably evil, but also the vulnerable: the European Jews who had hidden their money from the Nazis and wanted to keep it out of their hands
20:06:35 <apotheon> I've been to Europe, just not Way Back When.
20:07:34 <PapuaHardyNet> charolastra: surely there's some safe haven re: fiat banking right now? Or do the rich simply buy real estate to stash their cash these days?
20:07:55 <charolastra> art/NFTs :P
20:07:59 <PapuaHardyNet> real estate / art / boats / gucci
20:08:02 <PapuaHardyNet> lmao
20:08:18 <PapuaHardyNet> how old are you apo
20:08:20 <charolastra> i don't know. i think they might do it through those english islands or some caribian "nation"
20:08:41 <PapuaHardyNet> charolastra: You mean Nevis?
20:09:34 <charolastra> never heard of that
20:11:20 <charolastra> yes, maby. or around the time when the panama papers and similiar leaked. and there was an office building on an island where 100k of companies were registered
20:12:45 <apotheon> PapuaHardyNet: I've been 42 for almost four years.
20:19:28 <gumman> .faucet
20:19:29 <Wallet> gumman: OOPS! 30 min penalty. 20 hours to go.
20:19:49 <Mochi101> cheater
20:19:56 <gumman> :(
20:20:26 <somethingUniqueR> .facuet
20:20:57 <somethingUniqueR> .balance
20:20:58 <Wallet> somethingUniqueR: • Your balance is: 0.0007978 XMR (≈0.25 USD)
20:21:16 <somethingUniqueR> .faucet
20:21:19 <Wallet> somethingUniqueR: How many were Three Little​ Pigs
20:21:22 <somethingUniqueR> 3
20:21:23 <Wallet> somethingUniqueR: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000004 XMR to somethingUniqueR [89e06e56] Wait ≈1 day 1 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01552473
20:21:43 <abcdefg_1rssi> .faucet
20:21:43 <Wallet> abcdefg_1rssi: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000013 XMR to abcdefg_1rssi [c93847bf] Wait ≈23 hrs 56 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01552343
20:21:49 <abcdefg_1rssi> oh damn for FREE
20:21:51 <PapuaHardyNet> .balance
20:21:51 <Wallet> PapuaHardyNet: Your default coin is now set to XMR. Change with coins command.
20:21:52 <abcdefg_1rssi> no question
20:21:52 <Wallet> PapuaHardyNet: • Your balance is: 0.0008 XMR (≈0.26 USD)
20:21:58 <abcdefg_1rssi> .soak all
20:21:58 <Wallet> abcdefg_1rssi soaked 0.00004 XMR (0.0007119 Total) upon 15 users @ 274 minutes xmrbot sech1 chaper PapuaHardyNet Mochi101 rupee[m] charolastra Wallet FIBONACCI selsta clavi hyc as2333 moneromooo Gingeropolous @bonuspot (0.0001119 scraps) [5ab36982]
20:22:18 <rupee[m]> thanks abcdefg_1rssi
20:22:24 <PapuaHardyNet> danke
20:22:25 <rupee[m]> .faucet
20:22:27 <Wallet> rupee[m]: How many digits i​s 8
20:22:32 <rupee[m]> 1
20:22:32 <Wallet> rupee[m]: @bonuspot tipped 0.000045 XMR to rupee[m] [83ecc97e] Wait ≈1 day 1 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01559033
20:22:51 <somethingUniqueR> i would said 8 lol
20:23:09 <Mochi101> thanks abcdefg_1rssi
20:23:32 <Inge-> .faucet
20:23:34 <Wallet> Inge-: How many digits is ​10
20:23:37 <Inge-> 2
20:23:37 <Wallet> Inge-: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000033 XMR to Inge- [9796df2e] Wait ≈23 hrs 56 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01558703
20:23:55 <Inge-> .c 0.0000033*100000
20:23:56 <Wallet> Inge-: 0.0000033*100000 - invalid amount (not a number)
20:24:33 <somethingUniqueR> .balance
20:24:33 <Wallet> somethingUniqueR: • Your balance is: 0.0007982 XMR (≈0.25 USD)
20:25:14 <Inge-> .balance
20:25:15 <Wallet> Inge-: • Your balance is: 0.0051333 XMR (≈1.64 USD)
20:25:27 <Mochi101> Retiring Inge- ?
20:25:34 <Inge-> getting close
20:25:39 <Mochi101> congrats
20:25:49 <Mochi101> .balance
20:25:49 <Wallet> Mochi101: • Your balance is: 0.00008 XMR (≈0.03 USD)
20:25:52 <Inge-> just waiting for a modest 400x pamp
20:26:07 <Mochi101> only 400x?
20:26:20 <Mochi101> Man, nobody sets their goals high anymore.
20:26:26 <Inge-> I don't want to be greedy
20:26:35 <Mochi101> I guess hey.
20:32:41 <abcdefg_1rssi> anyone heard of njalla
20:32:47 <abcdefg_1rssi> domain registration service
20:33:25 <abcdefg_1rssi> can use monero to pay for domain registration no personal info required can sign up for accounts with an xmpp account
20:33:38 <Mochi101> yes
20:33:59 <abcdefg_1rssi> is it legit? safe?
20:34:13 <abcdefg_1rssi> fed honeypot?
20:34:39 <Mochi101> legit... but there is risk, obviously
20:35:01 <apotheon> You could lose control of your domain if you lose your xmpp account.
20:35:37 <abcdefg_1rssi> ccc.de is safe enough right?
20:35:42 <abcdefg_1rssi> pretty well known xmpp service
20:36:43 <PapuaHardyNet> njalla has a reputation in my circles
20:36:59 <PapuaHardyNet> although the prices are ridiculous
20:37:01 <as2333> you have to 'trust' ccc...
20:37:03 <Mochi101> I wouldn't use ccc for stuff like that.
20:37:26 <Mochi101> I wouldn;t trust ccc for anything.
20:38:17 <apotheon> I don't know those people at all.
20:38:19 <charolastra> why's that?
20:38:31 <apotheon> I only trust people and inviolable principles (i.e. arithmetic).
20:38:48 <apotheon> . . . and I only trust people to be who they are.
20:38:57 <Mochi101> Because they allowed a massive Antifa to be displayed at the front entrance one of the times I went there.
20:39:00 <apotheon> I only trust arithmetic to be what it is, too, I guess.
20:39:04 <Mochi101> Antifa Flag
20:39:17 <Mochi101> As if Antifa owned the venue
20:39:55 <PapuaHardyNet> ccc.de is in germany, antifa is a global movement?
20:40:06 <charolastra> true, they got pozzed. their reaction to Applebaum was also quite telling
20:40:15 <charolastra> antifa was invented in germany
20:40:16 <as2333> yep
20:40:22 <PapuaHardyNet> what's the Applebaum thing?
20:40:27 <as2333> the applebaum affair gave their game away
20:40:45 <charolastra> basicly the first #metoo guy
20:41:16 <Mochi101> PapuaHardyNet, I have a hard time taking anything from DE seriously.
20:42:14 <PapuaHardyNet> I thought germany was a pretty good place. Then again, my standards are probably much lower than yours
20:42:30 <Mochi101> I thought it was too.
20:42:36 <Mochi101> I was mistaken.
20:42:43 <charolastra> depends on your definition of good
20:42:55 <Mochi101> yeah, this is true charolastra
20:43:51 <PapuaHardyNet> good (to me) = strong social welfare institutes, low corruption, high privacy
20:44:30 <charolastra> well, all 3 fail IMO
20:44:54 <charolastra> sure, not as corrupt as maby italy but it's more institutionalized. basicly the state is the mafia
20:45:25 <charolastra> they are subverting privacy as much as they can because of muh kiddyporn and terrorism
20:46:26 <Mochi101> Social welfare is strong but they have to really penalize the honest, hard working people to make it happen. Basically makes them have a zombie workforce.
20:46:28 <charolastra> and there is a minimal level of welfare, called Hartz4 where you won't die on the streets from malnurishment but you'll be fucked nevertheless
20:46:56 <Mochi101> stronger than most countries though
20:47:25 <Inge-> What is the correct balance?
20:49:01 <apotheon> In Italy, the state is in the employ of the mafia, rather than itself being the mafia.
20:49:02 <PapuaHardyNet> I think you are looking at it incorrectly: the honest, hard working people aren't being penalized
20:49:17 <Mochi101> No?
20:49:33 <PapuaHardyNet> They are only being penalized if the tax funds are going into the hands of corrupt officials
20:50:12 <PapuaHardyNet> I haven't encountered welfare reliant people my entire life though, so I'm a bit biased
20:50:25 <apotheon> Let's ignore, for the sake of argument, the fact that all tax funds in some way go into the hands of currupt officials, everywhere.
20:50:32 <Mochi101> What about going into the pockets of lazy people who don't want to work, or the doctors that write them notes to miss work and get paid for it.
20:51:14 <Mochi101> What about the energy subsidies that make the price of electricity way more expensive, and those subsidies go to private businesses.
20:51:45 <lbbyeilhu> Why are you here? For the tech? Then you should be off at Zcash instead of trying to con newbies into a coin that doesn't work. For the money? If you put your money in BTC or ETH you would have been better off. For the magical crypto friends? Monero leadership laughs from losers like that. Find yourself more healthy realationships that don't laugh at you when they steal your money.
20:51:52 <PapuaHardyNet> energy subsidies make the price of electricity expensive?
20:52:24 <Mochi101> Energy subsidies that go to private businesses, paid for by the consumer through high energy costs.
20:52:59 <PapuaHardyNet> you'll have to walk me through this
20:53:24 <PapuaHardyNet> energy subsidy is simply high price that a private business asks for their service, correct?
20:53:43 <Mochi101> Or how about the taxation that goes to housing corporations owned by cities and private investors that's used to rebuild old buildings so that they can be filled with refugees and have their rent paid for with even more taxes.
20:56:25 <PapuaHardyNet> Hmm. I think what I lack is an ontology of alternate solutions
20:56:42 <apotheon> panarchism
20:56:57 <PapuaHardyNet> I agree that taxation is basically theft and I want people to use monero and not pay taxes
20:57:25 <PapuaHardyNet> But without a social net, I don't think this libertarian "shadow state" can scale.
20:57:42 <apotheon> It's basically illegal here to hire a homeless person of the street and let him sleep in a back room of your business.
20:57:49 <apotheon> Thanks, zoning laws!
20:58:00 <apotheon> s/of the street/off the street/
20:58:21 <apotheon> Changing that one thing alone could take a lot of people off the street.
20:58:58 <apotheon> Minimum wage laws with income tax make it effectively impossible to offer housing as part of employment.
20:59:08 <KSaunder1on> lbbyeilhu: i'm here for the tech
20:59:11 <apotheon> . . . even if the zoning restrictions weren't in the way.
20:59:33 <KSaunder1on> i'm trying ro read Zero to Monero, still at Zero...
20:59:35 <Mochi101> There's the rent control...
20:59:43 <hyc> minimum wage laws aren't a social evil. unbounded executive pay is.
20:59:44 <Mochi101> That also impede development.
21:00:27 <Mochi101> and then there's the buildings with historical protection status
21:00:28 <hyc> sucking as much profit out of companies as possible, by cutting expenses to the bone, making it impossible for employees to continue to deliver good quality, is evil.
21:01:08 <hyc> diverting revenue from paying employees well, and sending it to VC bloodsuckers, is evil
21:01:22 <PapuaHardyNet> is there a solution to that?
21:01:36 <hyc> higher corporate tax rates
21:01:47 <Mochi101> I disagree.
21:01:48 <hyc> they encourage corps to reinvest more revenue into the company
21:01:56 <PapuaHardyNet> lool, they'll just move money around
21:01:57 <hyc> to avoid losing revenue to taxation
21:02:12 <PapuaHardyNet> taxation only works on the poor
21:02:14 <hyc> evidence of US from 1948 to 1971 says otherwise
21:02:25 <PapuaHardyNet> you mean the Bretton Woods era?
21:02:30 <Mochi101> hehehe
21:02:33 <apotheon> hyc: The corporate executive pay problem is just an artifact of the problem of corporate business law in the first place.
21:02:35 <usernetinternet[> Higher cop taxes can be avoided with higher exec pay cause you get less profit
21:02:35 <usernetinternet[> Doesnt solve it
21:02:44 <PapuaHardyNet> During that time it wasn't easy to move money as it is now
21:02:47 <apotheon> Incorporation itself creates a broken-ass set of conditions for the larger economy.
21:02:59 <hyc> apotheon: agreed
21:03:34 <hyc> usernetinternet[: so make a law that salaray ratio cannot exceed e.g. 30:1 from highest to lowest paid employee
21:03:50 <apotheon> The sheer weight of business regulations invented to "regulate" corporations creates a situation in which it's insane to not incorporate, though, because the corporation's limitation of liability is necessary for a business to survive the legal climate.
21:03:59 <PapuaHardyNet> hyc: exec bonuses exist
21:04:14 <hyc> tax those at a higher personal rate.
21:04:22 <apotheon> Solve the problem, not the symptom.  The salary rates of corporate raider execs is just a symptom.
21:04:24 <PapuaHardyNet> that's a game of whack-a-mole
21:04:40 <usernetinternet[> Could be an idea but personally i dont think govs should be able to set pay
21:04:50 <KSaunder1on> we should make the corporate execs to drugs in the forest
21:04:54 <hyc> this isn't setting pay, this is setting limits on pay inequity
21:04:56 <KSaunder1on> that would do it, i think
21:05:04 <Mochi101> I'm in agreement with you on that usernetinternet[
21:05:07 <PapuaHardyNet> what
21:05:27 <hyc> but there's definitely a lot of fundamental flaws in corporate law today.
21:05:33 <usernetinternet[> hyc: that too, i just assume that all govs are corrupt and ceos would just find some scheme
21:05:34 <PapuaHardyNet> but yes, govs setting pay just means lobbying needs to be more effective
21:05:35 <hyc> corporations originally had a duty to serve the public good
21:05:50 <hyc> that was an explicit part of corporate charters
21:05:59 <Mochi101> ???
21:06:12 <apotheon> The very existence of corporate law is the fundamental problem of corporate law today.
21:06:19 <hyc> also corporate charters had explicit lifetimes. start a company for a specific purpose, accomplish it, dissolve.
21:06:23 <apotheon> Creating legal persons out of balance sheets is insane.
21:07:05 <usernetinternet[> apotheon: true, that is cancerous
21:07:14 <hyc> basically it's the same old "power corrupts" - because corporations concentrate power and have an unlimited lifetime, they corrupt without limit
21:07:20 <apotheon> Once you create a legal framework for centralizing economic power in abstract structures like corporate organizations, you create a power for changing the law in favor of promoting the growth of such organizations.
21:07:48 <Mochi101> hyc, how would that work for a farming corp?
21:07:52 <apotheon> Once limited lifetime, public purpose corporations came into being, it was inevitable they would bend the law to allow them to exist indefinitely for purely egocentric purposes.
21:07:57 <hyc> govt is structured to limit political power, via term limits etc. no such limit exists today on corporations, but it used to
21:08:37 <Mochi101> hyc, please give evidence that there were limits on the existence of corporations.
21:08:38 <hyc> Mochi101: you can specify the lifetime. I think some cities had corporate charters for 1000 years
21:09:05 <Mochi101> 1000 years?
21:09:09 <apotheon> Government itself bends the law to increase power.  Look at the current state of things like the uses of the US Constitution's commerce clause and the prevalence of effective legislation via executive orders.
21:09:41 <apotheon> Democrats noisily oppose executive orders when Republicans are in office, but mostly just as lip service, they they shut their lips when a Democrats are in office.
21:10:02 <hyc> Democrats spend the majority of their terms undoing the damage done by Republicans
21:10:06 <Mochi101> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies
21:10:08 <apotheon> A gathering-place for malignant narcissists acting as a check on its own power is a joke.
21:10:16 <hyc> so the use of whatever means is not really surprising
21:10:43 <apotheon> Promoting the use of the sources of damage is not exactly going to reverse the damage.
21:11:13 <apotheon> Every four-year term in the US for decades has been a net negative for the future prospects of the US.
21:11:31 <apotheon> I doubt there has been a presidential term that wasn't a net negative since Grover Cleveland's first term.
21:11:33 <hyc> those "oldest companies" weren't all corporations. the concept didn't exist back then.
21:11:51 <apotheon> He was a Democrat, though, so there's that.
21:12:22 <Mochi101> hyc, come on.
21:12:38 <charolastra> very true. i'd guess the oldest actual corporations are around 100 years old. but even then they have changed during that time
21:12:41 <apotheon> Corporations have existed since medieval guilds, at least.
21:13:01 <apotheon> . . . and they've always been a bad idea.
21:13:06 <hyc> https://newint.org/features/2002/07/05/history/
21:13:10 <Mochi101> nah
21:13:13 <apotheon> Let individuals "do what thou wilt".
21:13:37 <hyc> "a charter granted by the state to a group of investors to gather private funds for a specific purpose. Originally, charters were granted in the service of a public purpose, and could be revoked if this were not fulfilled. "
21:13:39 <apotheon> keep the idea of power consolidation via government grant of charter out of it
21:15:00 <hyc> "After Independence, American corporations, like the British companies before them, were chartered to perform specific public functions - digging canals, building bridges. Their charters lasted between 10 and 40 years, often requiring the termination of the corporation on completion of a specific task, setting limits on commercial interests and prohibiting any corporate participation in the political process."
21:15:48 <Mochi101> It is a legal construct, a charter granted by the state to a group of investors to gather private funds for a specific purpose.
21:15:51 <hyc> anyway... the reason the concept of corporations exists in the first place is to concentrate power to accomplish a public good that couldn't be done by individuals
21:15:55 <usernetinternet[> Was this system due to a lack of fuctioning gov during that era?
21:15:59 <hyc> it has been corrupted over time.
21:16:22 <rupee[m]> so corporations used to basically be CCS proposals
21:16:23 <Mochi101> I guess you're more into the privacy side of monero than the freedom side of it hey hyc ?
21:16:25 <apotheon> That corruption was inevitable.
21:16:37 <apotheon> Gathering resources means gathering the power to pervert supposedly positive ends.
21:17:07 <hyc> freedom is endangered by concentration of power.
21:17:16 <Mochi101> It is a legal construct, a charter granted by the state to a group of investors to gather private funds for a specific purpose.
21:17:18 <apotheon> Second realm strategy can help undermine all this stuff in the long run.
21:17:19 <hyc> that's why we spend so much effort on decentralization
21:17:53 <Mochi101> Can't have your cake and eat it too though hyc
21:18:07 <apotheon> I guess I don't ultimately care what someone claims the state should do, as long as the person's efforts are bent to the task of putting privacy and economics back in the hands of individuals so they can make the state irrelevant.
21:18:36 <hyc> the state isn't ever going to be irrelevant. there will always be large challenges in life that no group of individuals can face
21:19:00 <Mochi101> the state IS a group of individuals
21:19:02 <hyc> building interstate transport, building plumbing/sewerage,telecoms
21:19:04 <Mochi101> called citizens
21:19:41 <hyc> all of those things jointly benefit everyone, should be jointly owned by everyone
21:19:54 <hyc> and certainlyshould not be owned by a private corporation
21:20:14 <hyc> once again: "Originally, charters were granted in the service of a public purpose, and could be revoked if this were not fulfilled."
21:20:22 <gingeropolous> i really think things will change when the sole purpose of any effort is profit seeking
21:20:32 <hyc> if your corporation fails to benefit the public, or worse, harms the public, it should be dissolved
21:20:33 <gingeropolous> wait, need some flips in there
21:20:46 <gingeropolous> when the sole purpose IS'NT profit seeking
21:20:47 <Mochi101> Why should someone in Florida pay for someone's drug habits in California though hyc?
21:20:54 <hyc> they don't
21:21:01 <gingeropolous> disinflationary money is gonna reverberate through every part of our society imo
21:21:02 <Mochi101> yes they do
21:21:22 <Mochi101> indirectly, but they do
21:21:23 <hyc> nonsense. the amt of money FLorida contributes to federal budget is dwarfed by the amount it receives
21:21:45 <apotheon> We don't need roads where we're going.
21:21:48 <Mochi101> ok... maybe
21:22:10 <Mochi101> switch the two states around then hyc
21:22:27 <Mochi101> Why should someone in California pay for the drug habits of someone in Florida... better?
21:22:33 <hyc> lol
21:23:06 <usernetinternet[> I dont think states should count cents too much, not good for nation as a whole
21:23:14 <hyc> indeed
21:23:17 <Mochi101> Well, I can;t argue the point you make without numbers hyc, so just switch it around like that.
21:23:39 <endogenic> tragedy of the commons though.. some corps intentionally exploit it, yet dont apparently "not benefit" society
21:24:41 <PapuaHardyNet> who recommended that second realm strategy book here?
21:24:52 <PapuaHardyNet> it was a really interesting book
21:25:08 <Mochi101> hyc, so you liked some of the things that Trump did?
21:25:18 <hyc> not that I can recall
21:26:06 <apotheon> PapuaHardyNet: maybe me
21:26:08 <apotheon> I did mention it
21:26:11 <apotheon> .
21:26:17 <endogenic> the issue isnt corporations anyway.. it's people
21:26:29 <endogenic> whether the person intentionally exploits X or not
21:26:31 <apotheon> A big part of the problem is power centralization.
21:26:36 <apotheon> Corporations are a way to achieve that.
21:26:42 <endogenic> yep, and people can just keep starting them
21:26:52 <apotheon> When people are the problem, reducing power centralization makes it harder for those people to cause problems.
21:27:12 <hyc> which is why corporate charters need limited lifetimes
21:27:12 <endogenic> that's a way to remove humans from the determination of their own destiny though
21:27:14 <apotheon> Something like Monero decentralizes power.
21:27:16 <Mochi101> hyc, what about withdrawing from this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Postal_Union
21:27:21 <endogenic> power centralization isnt the issue
21:27:27 <endogenic> the issue is that education lacks the criteria of good and bad
21:27:32 <hyc> endogenic: it is always the issue
21:27:44 <apotheon> As long as a centralized power structure controls education, that will continue to be a problem.
21:27:46 <endogenic> says you hyc, but we're gonna decentralize power from you
21:28:00 <hyc> fine with me
21:28:07 <hyc> I never ask to be in charge of anything
21:28:08 <endogenic> ok, message struck from record
21:28:12 <apotheon> okay . . . moving on to other things
21:28:29 <apotheon> PapuaHardyNet: . . . but yeah, I recommend Second Realm a fair bit.
21:28:58 <apotheon> PapuaHardyNet: I usually recommend reading An Agorist Primer and Second Realm: Book On Strategy in that order, but if you're only ever going to read one of them read Second Realm.
21:30:11 <apotheon> going for a walk now
21:30:35 <hyc> Mochi101: considering how Trump has been gutting the USPS, I'd say on the whole, no
21:30:52 <Mochi101> Gutting the USPS?
21:31:01 <hyc> look at postmaster general deJoy
21:31:15 <Mochi101> Come on hyc, you're a smart guy.
21:31:41 <hyc> Trump appointed deJoy to PMG to dismantle the USPS
21:31:45 <hyc> and deJoy has been doing that
21:32:39 <Mochi101> because it's being used as a piggy bank
21:33:05 <hyc> they've been trying to defund it so FedEx and UPS can pick over its bones
21:33:11 <hyc> it's all BS
21:33:35 <hyc> the USPS is one of the only institutions explicitly appointed in the US Constitution
21:33:45 <hyc> because all citizens have a right to efficient delivery service
21:34:05 <hyc> it should not be left to for-profit enterprises, who will neglect lower-profit service areas
21:34:23 <Mochi101> The Postal Service has set-aside cash totals of more than $335 billion for its pensions and retiree healthcare, exceeding 83 percent of estimated future payouts. Its pension plans are nearly completely funded and its retiree healthcare liability is 50 percent funded – much better than the rest of the federal government.
21:34:48 <hyc> that pension fund is because of the stupid law requiring it to have 20 years of pension funding or whatnot
21:35:30 <hyc> and at the end of the day - so what? people who devoted their lives to serving their fellow citizens deserve their pensions
21:36:00 <Mochi101> I think it's good.
21:37:40 <hyc> back to corporations, this is good too https://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate-accountability-history-corporations-us/
21:37:54 <hyc> go back to those original laws, and enforce them, and we're good.
21:40:06 <hyc> it's sad how every few generations keeps having to relearn the lessons their predecessors already knew from painful experience
21:41:47 <Mochi101> How do you propose making computers then hyc ?
21:41:58 <hyc> ?
21:42:08 <Mochi101> Without corporations.
21:42:17 <hyc> nobody is saying without corporations
21:42:23 <hyc> just without excessive corporate power
21:42:38 <Mochi101> .define excessive
21:42:50 <hyc> did you read that entire article I linked?
21:43:07 <Mochi101> I'm about half way.
21:43:13 <hyc> I'll wait for you to finish
21:43:44 <Bill48105> that's what she said
21:46:53 <Mochi101> hyc, the article blames giving corporations personhood back in the late 1800s
21:47:01 <hyc> yes
21:47:28 <Mochi101> So if that explains the USA, what happened to the rest of the world?
21:47:39 <hyc> copied the US
21:47:49 <hyc> most large corps today are multinational
21:47:56 <Mochi101> yeah... today
21:48:33 <hyc> Asia is still somewhat different. they don't have the massive executaive pay ratios in Japan etc
21:48:43 <usernetinternet[> I think we can all agree that monero solves all of our probelms 😂😂😂😂
21:48:46 <Mochi101> "The industrial age forced a nation of farmers to become wage earners"
21:48:59 <Mochi101> So what do you want to go back to hyc?
21:49:23 <hyc> the industrial age also forced people into uniform work schedules
21:49:34 <hyc> most people don't need to commute to an office 9-5 5 days a week
21:49:41 <hyc> but they're forced to
21:49:46 <Mochi101> yes
21:50:08 <hyc> so yeah I'd rip up a lot of corporate laws passed in the past 100+ years
21:50:16 <Mochi101> hyc, with COVID this is now changing
21:50:33 <hyc> in some places. some companies talk about "returning to the office"
21:50:36 <Mochi101> The people that get to stay home seem to be the privileged class now.
21:51:05 <Mochi101> Too dangerous for government workers to go to the office, but the slaves better be out there.
21:51:22 <hyc> and there's now corporate greed behind that too - big corporate real estate owners need people to come back
21:51:53 <hyc> I never understood that ... I remember when SGI started to have hard times, and sold its corporate buildings, and rented them back
21:52:18 <hyc> can't believe that actually saved any money. whatever accountant convinced them to do that was probably paid by a competitor to torpedo the company
21:52:30 <Mochi101> yeah
21:53:11 <Mochi101> anyways hyc, these are complicated subjects and I need to start winding down for bed
21:53:20 <Mochi101> We should converse more often.
21:53:22 <Mochi101> :D
21:53:29 <hyc> heh. have a good night
21:53:33 <Mochi101> you too
22:02:59 * usernetinternet[ uploaded an image: (66KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/JTJHWJaImqCUiyABzErnrkeE/1618243107704.jpg >
22:12:49 <charolastra> hyc: they city of Vienna leased their underground to an american invester and rented it back for dozens of years. the trick is that the american investero can play a trick with his taxes that way
22:14:58 <apotheon> 21:48 < usernetinternet[> I think we can all agree that monero solves all of our probelms
22:15:09 <apotheon> definitely a big step in the correct direction
22:43:21 <Serus> Hello
22:43:57 <Serus> I see on the monero subreddit that somebody is talking about staking monero. Can monero be officially staked? Or is it only offered by third parties?
22:44:06 <selsta> no it can not be staked
22:44:14 <selsta> and I would stay away from "third parties"
22:44:24 <selsta> most likely a scam
22:47:52 <Serus> right
22:48:13 <Serus> Yeah, I didn't really trust it, but I'm also not keeping up with monero news
22:53:55 <apotheon> seems dangerous
22:55:38 <Serus> Somebody in the thread was using the service, but he put in a very small amount that he's totally prepared to lose
22:58:19 <usernetinternet[> Can u link the post?
23:03:23 <charolastra> sounds fishy
23:06:17 <apotheon> What do people here think of Kucoin and Bittrex?
23:07:12 <thrmo_> people here hate bittrex and think Kucoin is whatever.
23:07:41 <apotheon> What do they hate about Bittrex?  Is that one of those places where they refuse to pay out your cryptocurrency until you KYC yourself?
23:08:10 <selsta> didn't bittrex delist monero while refusing to say why
23:08:15 <apotheon> hmm
23:08:17 <apotheon> dunno
23:08:22 <selsta> but they still have other privacy coins
23:10:11 <apotheon> It looks (from a coindesk article in January) like it delisted Dash, Monero, and Zcash.
23:11:15 <selsta> yep, they still have other privacy coins listed
23:11:18 <apotheon> "For instance, the U.S. Secret Service has urged Congress to create ways to limit the use of privacy-focused cryptocurrencies."  WTF?  How do legislators create ways to limit their use?  That's pretty much nonsensical.
23:11:40 <apotheon> Are the others all things like privacy-oriented ETH tokens?
23:14:42 <charolastra> they don't. that's just what they call their meme legislation
23:14:49 <apotheon> At first glance, I'd guess that maybe the Bittrex delisting selected those cryptocurrencies because they're well-known for privacy features.
23:15:05 <apotheon> charolastra: seems legit
23:15:58 <apotheon> I'm guessing Kucoinis KYC/AML like all the other exchange sites that look like they had web designers on-staff.
23:16:05 <apotheon> s/Kucoinis/Kucoin is/
23:21:42 <melona> hello
23:22:38 <melona> hyc i checked little more and found that solution is little bigger
23:22:40 <melona> https://github.com/xmrig/xmrig/pull/2077
23:23:24 <melona> jit_compiler_a64.cpp on xmrig is not identical on monero randomx
23:24:19 <melona> i'm not sure what to remove from jit_compiler_a64.cpp for file to be compiled without errors for monero
23:38:13 <apotheon> This line from a bitrates article is hilarious: "On Jan. 15, Bittrex will delist a number of privacy coins, including Monero (XMR), Dash (DASH), and Zcash (ZEC). It is not the first exchange to do so, raising many questions about whether privacy cryptocurrencies have a future."
23:38:32 <apotheon> It definitely shows the target audience, if that's somehow considered indicative of a privacy cryptocurrency's "future".
23:39:35 <apotheon> The whole point of a privacy cryptocurrency is to make value transactions private, rather than playing daytrader games in public.
23:40:02 <apotheon> Delisting them seems like a great way to make them harder for regulators to track, too.
23:44:50 <treepay[m]> Does anyone here actually believe Monero will be a widely used currency in the world?
23:45:41 <apotheon> maybe
23:46:06 <apotheon> One can already buy wild game jerky from Germany with it.  I would already have ordered a bunch of the place shipped to where I live.
23:46:22 <apotheon> s/of the place/if the place/
23:46:45 <charolastra> if you can order heroin through mail, why not jerky?
23:47:08 <endor00[m]> It definitely would have a shot, if people pulled their head out their arse and stopped fueling shitcoins
23:47:13 <endor00[m]> ...so probably not
23:48:32 <apotheon> har
23:48:47 <apotheon> The thing is, fuelling shitcoins shouldn't have any effect on the useful applications of Monero.
23:49:07 <apotheon> Who gives a crap about performance on KYC exchanges?  I care about being able to use Monero as currency.
23:49:49 <apotheon> Monero just needs to keep abreast of privacy concerns and not get technically fuckered somehow, and it should do fine.
23:50:17 <apotheon> The hard part will be finding the inroads to where it's accepted for trades.
23:50:38 <endor00[m]> It's money, time, and effort wasted on useless crap that could have gone towards a better project
23:51:16 <endor00[m]> That 66B$ market cap on Ripple didn't get there all by itself
23:51:59 <endor00[m]> Dogecoin went from a pure meme to a pump and dump
23:52:06 <nioc> but they just want to use their time to get $$$$ so it wouldn't necessarily have gone to montero
23:52:22 <apotheon> I suspect that stuff will mostly just affect people who wouldn't want a privacy-oriented currency anyway.
23:52:29 <apotheon> or what nioc said
23:53:17 <nioc> $ is a byproduct of monello, not the reason for building it
23:54:32 <nioc> it's like the "y not both" of crypto
23:55:03 <endor00[m]> Of course, but imagine if all that dev effort had focused on improving existing things instead
23:56:17 <endor00[m]> All those fancy wallets and UIs
23:56:41 <apotheon> Imagine if the MobileCoin effort turned out to be a license-compatible project working on interesting privacy technologies so that both it and Monero could benefit from shared development work, instead of MobileCoin just being some janky excuse for Moxie to sell another piece of his soul to try to maintain significance in the private messaging space.
23:57:20 <endor00[m]> Exactly
23:57:27 <nioc> I have watched the effort put into monery slowly and steadily increase over time
23:57:44 <apotheon> Imagine if USGOVCORP just left us the fuck alone and we didn't have to fight for the right to party . . . err, I mean, to have private transactions.
23:57:47 <nioc> would it be nice / good to have more?  always
23:58:40 <apotheon> I don't think any of this means Monero is doomed, though.
23:58:57 <apotheon> I think it's in a very good place right now, as long as the core devs don't get rounded up and shot.
23:59:00 <apotheon> (or whatever)
23:59:40 <apotheon> I wonder how many people would send how much Monero to a "save the core devs trying to escape political persecution" fund.