00:02:06 There are 900 new bitcoins mined every day, so far only 1200 bitcoins are locked on the btc lightning network - 0.005743% of the total supply 00:02:06 The liquid network is literally a dead chain, i looked om a block explorer yesterday and say 3 transactions over the whole hour 00:02:28 liquid is something else I think 00:02:33 unrelated to lightning 00:02:51 selsta: liquid is meant to be a sidechain 00:03:00 i don't know if lightning will end up working / getting adopted 00:03:10 but if it does it would make sense for monero to also have it 00:03:22 Layer 2 solutions have not been adopted after years of existing on the pne chaim that does need it 00:03:22 Monero can scale 00:03:34 * Layer 2 solutions have not been adopted after years of existing on the one chaim that does need it 00:03:34 Monero can scale 00:03:57 * Layer 2 solutions have not been adopted after years of existing on the one chain that does need it 00:03:57 Monero can scale 00:04:08 I think the farcaster team brought up lightning for the purposes of xmr / btc swaps 00:04:24 Defi will be built out on lightning also 00:06:00 Monero fees drop with increased blocksize anyway 00:07:19 Something lightninglike could be useful some day, for (perhaps) different reasons than Bitcoin needs it, but it doesn't seem to be a concern yet, and probably needs greater practical adoption to be useful anyway. 00:08:27 I suspect anything like that would need to be implemented differently by then, in any case. 00:11:39 This is the background to the question 00:11:44 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mst66w/comment/guwelof 00:15:11 Hm, yeah, the alternate implementation ideas thing is probably important for that very reason. 00:31:19 How would the Monero network react if Monero usage suddenly exploded to that of Visa or Mastercard? 00:33:37 Plan99.net/~mike/satoshi-emails/thread1.html 00:33:56 Elon_Sat0shi: auto-adjustment in block size and so on 00:34:22 and hash rate 00:34:29 et cetera 00:34:30 Satoshi - btc can scale to visa levels with 2008 hardware 00:34:30 I think monero is fine 00:35:04 volantaryism1[m]: nice reference 00:35:13 I didn't get the reference 00:36:07 https://plan99.net/~mike/satoshi-emails/thread1.html 00:36:08 Its a archive of email correspondance of satoshi - he directly says that scaling is no issue 00:36:11 search for "Visa" 00:36:17 damn i timed out 00:36:47 The idea that cryptos cannot scale on layer 1 is gas lighting left over from the btc blocksize wars 00:37:27 Huh. If scaling is no issue, I wish they would scale. Bitcoin fees suck. 00:37:46 I'm sure the Bitcoin devs will get around to it... one of these days 00:37:55 Elon_Sat0shi: read about the bitcoin blocksize wars if you werent around then 00:38:06 alright 00:38:11 yeah, if they *wanted* to do it and it proved valuable to the chain, they'll get around to it... soon^tm 00:39:24 I'm still not clear on the motivations to do things the way they did. I imagine it probably had something to do with wanting to pump the price without relying on use as an actual currency, but I guess I haven't thought through the implications of the resulting decisions enough. 00:39:45 (in BTC, I mean) 00:40:47 volantaryism1[m]> Satoshi - btc can scale to visa levels with 2008 hardware <<>>> lololololol 00:41:10 it can't scale on 2021 hardware 00:41:19 nor can monero 00:41:56 That's a matter of weird engineering decisions in the blocksize wars rather than the limitations of BTC per se, though. 00:42:38 I also don't know the actual comparison between transaction frequency on the BTC blockchain and transaction frequency of (2008) Visa. 00:42:56 Pi 4s can handle 256mb btc blocks without giving out (see bch testnet) 00:43:00 That might be relevant. 00:43:15 Yeah, BCH seems to be doing okay. 00:43:35 I'm pretty sure Satoshi didn't expect what's happening today. 00:43:54 Crypto is a competitor to visa when it comes to online payments i guess 00:44:02 Maybe I'm mistaken about something in this estimation of mine, though. 00:45:05 Maybe if Monero gets to where everyone is using it, the deflation will encourage people to not spend it a lot 00:45:14 I wonder whether there's a Nakam0to_Musk out there somewhere. 00:45:34 I've used Musk_Nakamoto as an alternative username 00:45:41 I see. 00:45:54 apotheon: i even saw that someone in bcash community designed a cheap chip that fits into the m2 slot that is specifically built for verifying transactions 00:46:03 Maybe Nakamot0_Musk would be better than Nakam0to_Musk. 00:46:07 It would verify around 1million txa per second 00:46:07 Also my nick is Sat0shi not Satoshi because #bitcoin bans anybody with "Satoshi" in their username 00:46:15 * It would verify around 1million txs per second 00:46:19 volantaryism1[m]: interesting 00:46:33 Because of people trying to claim they're actually Satoshi Nakamoto. (I'm not Satoshi) 00:46:35 It was pretty cheap too at around less than 50$ in parts 00:47:02 You could probably build an asic to verify that could verify the monero blockchain in seconds 00:47:31 Elon_Sat0shi: Are you Elon Musk? 00:48:03 No, I'm not Elon Musk, either. 00:48:24 If so, I was going to ask why Tesla isn't all-in on Monero. 00:48:35 Actually, Elon and Satoshi got into a transporter accident that fused them into me, Elon Satoshi. Please help me, Janeway wants to kill me. 00:48:50 Someone stop Janeway! 00:49:15 r/JanewayDidNothingWrong 00:49:28 or something like that 00:49:29 It was a very complicated transporter accident. I'm Nakamoto_Sisko. 00:49:40 Where's Guiker? 00:49:49 Actually, I'm kidding. 00:50:05 I'm Nakamoto Garak. 00:50:12 I know, you're actually Captain Jean-Luc Buterin right? 00:50:55 Elon_Sat0shi: No, definitely a simple tailor. 00:51:57 Garak Bigend 00:52:00 Oh okay. But are you friends with Julitalik Bushirin? 00:52:06 wow 00:52:21 I need to go before I get twisted in name-knots. Meatspace calls. 00:52:26 lol 00:52:32 Garak Mencken. 00:52:36 signing off 00:53:03 Satoshi this satoshi that... the real question who is nicolas van saberhagen lol 00:54:20 I'm reading https://www.afrikaiswoke.com/bitcoin-the-block-size-wars/ and how would a larger block size make Bitcoin centralized? 00:55:22 And is it a concern with Monero? 00:56:07 Its actually the opposite, small blocks force people off chain onto custodial networks to avoid the sky high fees... 00:56:21 lol 00:56:55 Do you think coinbase would be worth so many billions if people could afford to take their bitcoin off it and actually use it? 00:59:53 I hope Kraken is better, I was thinking about buying monero there 01:00:03 Wikipedia says Kraken is actually a bank 01:00:37 There are also risks if the block size is too high. 01:00:48 Not sure if that makes any difference though (that Kraken is a bank) 01:01:10 What are the risks of high block size? 01:01:14 It's more nuanced than large block size = good 01:01:50 Can you ELI5? 01:02:40 selsta: such as? 01:02:55 What volantaryism1[m] said 01:03:04 it becomes more difficult for low powered nodes to stay in sync with the network, running a node behind Tor might also become an issue. AFAIK also higher block orphan rate etc. 01:03:21 Oh okay 01:03:22 especially due to the lower block time in monero 01:04:07 I like monero's approach. We will see how it turns out in practice. 01:04:15 selsta: the network doesnt need to accomodate people running nodes on devices with less processing power than a fridge 01:04:59 I bet fridges have better processing power than old DOS laptops 01:05:04 You want as many nodes as possible and not only high powered ones in centralized data centers / AWS 01:05:30 monero already had to deal with Sybil attacks 01:07:10 Obviously there has to be a balance. Bitcoins approach is too conservative IMO. 01:07:36 But just throwing large blocks at it also isn't the solution to all problems. 01:08:23 It literally is 01:08:59 The idea that consumer hardware cannot handle large blocks is gaslighing at best and a flat out lie at worst 01:09:40 We don't need raspberries to run nodes 01:11:15 Does Oxen have superior privacy to Monero? 01:11:21 no 01:13:39 Is Oxen new? I would say that Monero is more battle tested, even if Oxen has some interesting ideas. Do you think Oxen might have superior privacy to Monero? In what way? 01:14:11 Oxen is a monero fork with masternodes 01:14:36 Ohh, it used to be called Loki 01:14:44 I've heard of Loki/Oxen before 01:15:31 I thought the Session messenger was interesting. I never got around to trying out Lokinet (now called Oxennet??) 01:16:31 Perhaps they rebranded because Loki is a trickster god lol 01:20:55 Would you count a Raspberry as contributing to Monero if it were mining on a small pool? 01:22:39 Raspberry mining is useless due to missing hardware AES 01:23:22 ah okay 01:24:08 Would it be possible to make a pool server that somehow proxies to mining other pools? You could make a roundabout mining pool that mines on multiple random pools 01:35:13 Elon_Sat0shi: there are already mining proxies, see https://github.com/xmrig/xmrig-proxy 01:35:26 i dont know if it has functionality to switch between pools 01:35:45 but it's open source so someone could fork it to add that functionality 01:37:51 I thought xmrig-proxy was just some control system for multiple xmrig instances 01:38:08 Ooh maybe xmrig itself could be forked to add functionality for multiple pools 01:38:14 No pool proxy server needed 01:38:55 but... then each pool is going to have their own balance and their own minimum withdrawal that will never be reached 01:42:37 Unless there were some way for these pools to federate to have a shared account among them 01:44:02 i've never used it but if i understand correctly xmrig is a proxy for any miner using the stratum protocol, not necessarily just xmrig 01:44:05 but i could be wrong 01:44:34 and yeah you'd probably just want to pick a handful of proxies to rotate between to make sure you actually reach minimum withdrawal amounts 01:44:45 a handful of pools even 01:47:24 What is this stratum protocol? 01:50:47 Oh, just a protocol for mining? 01:51:27 yeah pretty much, protocol for pooled mining 01:51:55 originally developed for BTC i think, but also adapted to other coins 03:18:12 volantaryism1[m]: that depends on how large 03:18:31 consumer hardware cannot handle 1 TB blocks, obviously 03:46:27 if one runs a local node via the gui wallet, without mining, then is one helping the monero network? 03:47:46 talos: do you have incoming connections? 03:47:47 how? by spreading messages faster throughout the network? or increasing network robustness? 03:48:01 hmm how can I check that 03:48:35 the daemon log does not show much activity 03:49:50 talos: enter "status" 03:49:53 into daemon log 03:50:10 it will show you inc and out connections 03:50:31 i see! 03:50:41 i've got 12 out and 0 in 04:01:37 hmm so why would i have 0 incoming connections 04:07:15 port 18080 open on your router? 04:08:21 host firewall ? 04:09:08 i.e. SUSE Linux firewall-cmd --add-port=18080/tc or deb / ubunut with ufw 04:09:25 *tcp 04:17:26 i will look into these things thanks selsta and bicknell ! 04:48:52 ufw allow 18080 05:14:26 hey there, I am new to the monero community and want some coins to play with 05:14:54 can anyone send me some 05:17:13 Macrosoft: you can use stagenet or testnet 05:17:40 https://community.xmr.to 05:17:52 has a stagenet / testnet faucet 05:19:01 but I want to get some mainnet coins, 0.005 xmr is appreciated 05:23:44 my wallet address is 8AcBPrQSVZyQVyYzQ1BGHaagu37M3tPfmX9bY2G96GCLHTeLn5PsK8nTRAAZpqL919g5Mi61kXxQyYqVNfMyvMBeAyWyTFx 05:23:54 any small amount of xmr is appreciated 05:24:11 I sent the smallest amount possible. 05:24:25 0 05:25:03 .ip 103.138.53.233 05:25:07 greater than 0 please 05:26:05 I am sure that someone would help me 05:26:19 Tell your story. 05:26:28 Bon't just beg with no background story. 05:26:37 Make it worth it for the sender. 05:26:54 I just bought xmr at the price of 340 usd 05:27:01 yesterday 05:27:27 FIY, you want to know why you are getting those daily messages? Cults NEED to control information. That's why people like lh1008 get savagly attacked (also called disconnection) for even talking to me. Break the information embargo, break the cult. Who would sign up to Scientology if they knew from the get-go that is is about a sci-fi alien overlord? Who would sign up to MAGA if they knew what a loser Trump is? 05:27:27 You don't sign up to MAGA to do a failed Viking LARP and some time off in club fed. You sign up because you feel like shit and they promise to give you self-respect. It is a total lie of course, you are still a joke even when cosplaying a Viking. Just like Monero's promise of privacy is a lie. 05:27:27 but it lowers to 90% 05:27:44 so yiu have enough to play with 05:27:47 you 05:27:51 Vpassion Technology Limited 05:28:19 Hong Kong 05:28:30 hehehe 05:28:38 That was quick. 05:55:31 how long does it take to prune the blockchain 06:15:11 abcdefg_irssi, depends on your system 07:10:12 do I need to delete the blockchain then run prune-blockchain to actually get a pruned blockchain 07:10:18 just ran it but the filesize is still 100gb 07:15:03 abcdefg_irssi, were you fully synced when you did it? 07:15:15 or is it still syncing? 07:47:27 Happy Moneroversary to everyone. 07:48:59 with the rise of bitcoin price, bitcoin transactions have become too expensive. isn't the same going to happen to monero? 07:51:27 on a ryzen 5, xmrig mines at 6+ kh/s (hugepages and 1gb pages turhed on) but monerod solo mining gets me only 4 kh/s 07:55:20 swrangsar, I think monero dynamically adapts block size, unlike bitcoin 07:55:27 you can mine solo with xmrig 08:01:20 swrangsar: fees decrease with blocksize 08:02:07 1TB blocks are 10x the size of the entire chain currently, it is not happening any time soon 09:13:58 Hi, does the new "send to multiple addresses" feature in the gui have any privacy implications? Are multiple sends in one transaction easier to correlate or does it make no difference? 09:16:18 so what is fluf's net worth 09:16:22 that is like acolonoscopy 09:16:39 . 09:17:59 is jy 'n hotnot 09:18:10 ek kort geld help my juo knysna poes asseblief 09:18:21 2 miljoen en ek gee dit terug. 10:28:33 Do you think putting 100k into monero would be a good long term investment ? 10:29:20 what time frame are you aiming at? 10:30:03 An observer knows that three outputs were created by the same sender, rather than just two. 10:30:57 Only one is change, most likely. So the probability of these outputs being change is 1/3, not 1/2, absent other info. 10:31:08 I think that's pretty much it. 10:31:51 Meeting at 17:00 UTC today re: Triptych (in #monero-dev) 10:40:09 A few years 10:48:52 most definitely in my opinion, monero can go easily to 5k in bull case scenario 10:50:48 Why not 25k ? 10:52:39 thx moneromoo for answering. I have a practical example but I'm not sure about the privacy implications. Let's say i have a cold wallet that i want to make 3 transactions from. 1. to a kyc exchange, 2. to an address i want to remain anonymous and rest back to a new cold storage address. Are there negative impilications from doing this with one 10:52:40 transaction to all 3 compared to doing 3 separate txs? 10:53:22 25k would be double the market cap of ethereum. i think monero would need a massive eco system to get that much inflow 10:56:38 RandomLurker, it does have a massive ecosystem. It's just that it's so private that nobody knows about it. 11:44:02 * ieatglueinthegul uploaded an image: (53KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/halogen.city/2b2781b7d59751e5435645fbbde5395bd8ca2666/1618744625366.png > 11:44:09 Are we crashing to 0 bros 11:45:51 The sell out is real 11:46:14 Why not moon k? 11:46:39 * The sell off is real 11:47:07 OK broskis. Bottom opportunity buy go.... 11:47:21 Nice hopium. 11:48:25 #monero-markets 11:48:55 Come on. Bottom prediction price for XMR for this bear run 11:58:23 Dropping to 260 imo 12:05:33 * volantaryism1[m] uploaded an image: (117KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jhdGIZidZpkERJnzqPTGXNhI/IMG_20210417_155024_741.jpg > 12:06:53 good picture but people with no experience with cryptos will probably not really understand what "shielded" means. Private or anonymous are more well known words. 12:34:09 +1 15:03:03 .faucet 15:03:05 azy: Snow White had how many dwarfs 15:03:12 7 15:03:13 azy: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000045 XMR to azy [667ebafc] Wait ≈23 hrs 55 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01622741 15:03:20 almost said 8 15:03:35 .balance 15:03:35 azy: • Your balance is: 0.0001893 XMR (≈0.06 USD) 15:09:05 RandomLurker: maybe i read it as shilled donations at first 15:09:24 * volantaryism1[m] uploaded an image: (122KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jogQBYJcdsmRIJuaVmRgFWQt/IMG_20210418_035707_419.jpg > 15:19:28 Maybe we can do a CCS ad get him to sing a song about Monero volantaryism1[m] 15:25:05 If only one of you gave Papa ChooChoo some TLC when I wrote a faster miner, instead of ignoring him, things could have happened differently https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/5lsfgt/_/dbz0jnp/ 15:37:32 * volantaryism1[m] uploaded an image: (172KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/lWZuoYgQzcRWNHHqWuTxvTUC/IMG_20210417_154951_182.jpg > 15:37:53 Not sure what this img is trying to say but its well made 15:38:49 It is saying that the solution to blockchain analysis is elementary 15:51:27 Can somebody explain me why too small fees are bad? 15:52:04 makes it cheap to spam the blockchain 15:52:54 And that would make...? Except from larger blockchain in size 15:58:29 i think if we define fees as too cheap, we should also define what is too expensive. 15:59:37 large blockchain size is already bad in itself and a huge number of transactions also puts nodes under stress (verification), also depending on the size of the spam attack the attacker could own a nontrivial amount of outputs and deanonymize some transactions 16:00:07 feeds need to be large enough to incentivize large enough number of miners to keep mining, I would say 16:00:40 ultimately it's connected to electricity costs, I'm pretty sure you could model an optimal value easily 16:01:07 assuming a certain hashing power for security 16:01:21 Honestly i think anyone who can pay fees has every right to spam the chain 16:02:29 that sure sounds like a voluntaryist talking :) 16:02:29 Monero blockchain size is like 100x less than the disk space i had on my computer at the time of launch 16:05:38 mechanimist: whish monero has an OP return field, could store so much data 16:06:20 my point is we are talking about adjusting the fees, which will necessarily make them more expensive. articmine has been working on this iirc. 16:06:37 Thanks guys for explaining 16:09:30 Also I was wondering if Monero itself is prepared to expand to size of BTC (I am talking about daily transactions) or it isn't, yet? 16:09:50 XMR|patix0331[m]: it is 16:09:54 Guys make sure not to track your XMR with services like blockfolio - its another way of compromising your data 16:09:57 XMR | patix0331: easily 16:10:04 XMR|patix0331[m]: it would make double spend attacks easier 16:10:15 And how much it would change fees, or It wouldn't at all? 16:10:32 XMR|patix0331[m]: would what? larger blocks? 16:10:38 the blocks grow by how much they're used 16:10:47 Larger number of daily transactions 16:10:52 there's a formula. basically, fees have to be higher if the blocks are bigger 16:10:57 they'd still be very low IIR 16:11:00 C 16:11:10 like cents. bitcoin's big because of congestion 16:11:18 We are talking about what range in pesimistic scenario? 16:11:37 oh, thats good to hear 16:12:28 Bigger monero blocks = smaller tees 16:12:32 * Bigger monero blocks = smaller fees 16:13:00 Penalty = BaseReward * ((BlockSize / Median_N) - 1)^2 16:13:07 median_N = median block size over last 100 blocks 16:14:04 if a block is 1MB, and the last 100 blocks have a median of 1MB, this works out to BaseReward * ((1M / 1M) - 1)^2 = 0 16:14:10 fees go up to increase blocksize but if blocksize stays at that increased size the fees go back to normal 16:14:45 increased fees are to change not sustain 16:17:20 nioc: can the penalty ever go negative? 16:18:40 I believe at those sustained larger blocksize the fee actually is reduced vs the default blocksize 16:27:59 Any update in the destination amounts are unequal bug? 16:42:43 Cost to add 1GB to the monero chain is around 1 monero rn 16:43:09 Bug is fixed here, as per post title: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mqywbj/gui_v01721_oxygen_orion_released_fixes/ 16:47:41 volantaryism1[m]: How do you measure that? 16:48:15 Maybe i made a tx or maybe i didnt XD 16:48:50 Oh, do you mean transaction fees? 16:49:25 I guess you measure it in transaction fees (as opposed to, for instance, electricity to mine blocks). 16:51:21 It was fees yes 17:25:24 Is there any work in progress at blocking/unlocking balance? Right now I have to wait 25 mins for confirmation, right? 17:26:04 10 blocks, so 20 minutes if the blocks hit at hte expected target. 17:26:38 Are there any impromvents to come for that process? 17:26:56 None near term. 17:29:47 Mabye zero conf payments could be useful if monero sees large commercial adoption but i have no idea the technical issues would need to be overcome 17:31:46 imo, there's not really any technical issue for zero conf. its a trust issue. zero conf works now. 17:32:43 you can buy a coffee with zero conf. it would be an awful lot of hassle to try and engineer a situation to double spend a zero conf, and for a coffee, its downright silly 17:32:53 now for buying a car? probably want at least 1 conf. 17:33:52 gingeropolous: sorry i meant spending a zero conf tx sent to you 17:34:17 oh. 17:41:35 I dom't understand the situation where you would need that 17:42:07 Businesses are used to batch processing done by visa. And these batches take days before they land in vendors accounts 17:42:45 yeah. tx speed is a solution in search of a problem imo. 17:43:40 anon_82641: i had to top up someones bank account in an emergency and the funds were used instantly, thats why i mentioned it 17:45:43 Yeah, that's a good use case. 17:46:32 Similarly, there's the case of moving money between one's own "accounts", as in when one is going to need to move a chunk of money from a savings account to a checking account at the bank to handle a series of payments. 17:46:55 yeah, thats more the locktime thing though 17:47:02 There's less reason for that to be a big deal within a single cryptocurrency, with the exception of the fact that one might use different "accounts" to keep track of budgeting. 17:47:51 . . . but in the case of moving between cryptocurrencies, there's more of an easily imagined practical need for one person being able to move money around with immediacy, I think. 17:48:17 It might make sense in some cases to have "savings" in one cryptocurrency and "checking" in another, after all. 17:48:40 (given different valuation activity on different blockchains and whatnot) 17:48:57 eh, maybe 17:49:33 Even so, I think that the only thing *really* holding something like Monero back from being more useful *and* more convenient than fiat in the general case is a relative lack of ability to get whatever one needs for it, in a practical sense. 17:50:10 It can easily be more convenient and useful *overall* than fiat, in a technical sense, *right now*, even if it's less useful or less convenient on a technical level for *very specific use cases*. 17:50:44 These use cases just seem like things that need solutions we haven't developed yet, as opposed to things it can't handle with a little innovation. 17:50:53 yeah 17:51:18 I look forward to competing solutions producing some sense of which are the best options and all this stuff being handled in the nearish future. 17:51:26 the zero conf / chained tx thing is solvable with changing the index based database to an ID based database 17:51:40 I also look forward to being able to find entry to a thriving economy of "it's easier to get most of what I need with Monero than with USD". 17:51:57 gingeropolous: What do you mean? 17:51:59 but that opens other cans of worms re: chain bake time for proper ringsig effects 17:52:06 (re: index vs. ID) 17:52:27 apotheon, currently, with monero, a transaction references its inputs by their index in the blockchain 17:52:47 so if i make a transaction, im gonna use outputs at index 460 2345 23523 3245 234 etc 17:52:51 as inputs 17:52:54 righto 17:53:03 so in order for these outputs to get an index, they need to be in the blockchain 17:53:25 Is ID, then, something prior to addition to a block? 17:53:40 instead, you can use the hash of the output to identify which outputs to use in a tx 17:54:10 so you don't look for an output as position x x1 x2 - x11 17:54:10 I recall having heard of a decentralized, non-Ethereum dependant stablecoin called PegNet, which was kind of forgotten (has no price as of now) a few moments (months, days, IDK) after it got attacked with double-spend. Is such a thing really possible, and has anyone read PegNet's sourcecode to see if it was really secure (not sure if it is private, but privacy =/= security)? 17:54:23 * I recall having heard of a decentralized, non-Ethereum dependant stablecoin called PegNet, which was kind of forgotten (has no price as of now) a few moments (months, days, IDK) after it got attacked with double-spend. Is such a thing really possible, and has anyone read PegNet's sourcecode to see if it was really secure (transparent blockchain, so no privacy, but privacy =/= security)? 17:54:52 instead, you look for outputs with ID1, ID2, - ID11 17:55:09 it adds weight to transaction,s because hash IDs are larger than the index method 17:55:40 I think I'll have to learn a bit more about the technical details to really have a firm grasp of IDs in this sense and how they factor into things, but I think I have a general gist of what you're saying. 17:56:25 yeah its the difference of looking for someone in a line by their position in the line vs shouting out "hey where's bob" 17:56:35 hashes are 32 bytes, index positions are 8 bytes 17:56:36 gotcha 17:57:51 More like ~2.x bytes per. 17:58:09 My next big concern with convenience and utility is figuring out how to spend fiat online to acquire cryptocurrencies without having to KYC-expose myself to get to a point where I have online-spendable USD. 17:58:28 e.g. Visa gift cards without having to show ID and being tracked at the point of sale 17:58:49 moneromooo: 2.x? 17:58:58 . . . as in 2.3, 2.4, et cetera? 17:59:00 I mean somewhere between 2 and 3. 17:59:05 gotcha, yeah 17:59:13 eh, thats not a monero problem apotheon . can't really fix that with code. thats a meatspace problem 17:59:15 2.2272491 17:59:23 gingeropolous: Yes, I'm aware. 17:59:31 I'm just kinda struggling with figuring it out. 17:59:47 There seems to be a pretty difficult issue involved in breaking the chain. 18:00:09 Lengthening the chain helps a little, but it doesn't really solve the problem. 18:00:21 . . . and lengthening it looks like money laundering more and more as it lengthens. 18:00:52 The best idea I've had so far is to pay a homeless person who doesn't look so sketchy he'll get harassed to go buy Visa gift cards with my cash. 18:00:58 It's not a great idea. 18:01:04 lol 18:01:38 well the best way to do that is to mine 18:01:46 no mickey mouse with mining 18:02:00 Yeah . . . that doesn't involve the mouse, but it does involve other complications. 18:02:23 I have to do a lot of mental work just to figure out what I'd have to do to make it reasonable to do. 18:03:10 If I'm not doing it over I2P gateways or Tor, I'd essentially be exposed to the ISP, for instance. 18:03:36 I have to take the latency of such things into account in figuring out what I need to make it reasonable, though. 18:04:13 When things start getting complicated, and require more sysadmin work, I get less enthused, and it ends up sitting on the back burner for a long time before I just give up and don't do it at all. 18:04:35 Sysadmin work and accounting are very far from my favorite things in the world. 18:04:57 well someday i'll start a "totally mining monero" service 18:05:05 har 18:05:08 where you send fiat, and i totally make hardware mine for you, and then you get xmr 18:05:23 non-KYC, I assume 18:05:39 Is "totally" facetious here, or what? 18:05:41 i assume. dunno if there's much red tape around cloud services 18:05:44 It seems facetious. 18:05:52 im never facetious 18:05:57 har 18:06:48 You'd receive fiat payments, though, which would still require someone having a way to send the fiat to you, so it just requires people trying to deanonymize Monero acquisition to notice what kind of service you provide. 18:06:58 I don't think that solves the problem at all. 18:07:20 yeah 18:07:20 It's enough for "probable cause" in many cases, most likely. 18:07:39 probable cause to harass the shit out of someone who didn't do anything wrong, and just wants to be left alone 18:08:11 bleh 18:13:54 I am amazed. I went to check github to report new spam and all spam's gone. Congrats who found the right incantation to get them to actually wipe them :D 18:14:31 whoever* 18:14:35 (whatever) 18:15:05 Funny thing is I was going to do that to get a break from a more shitty day... 18:15:29 Thanks for the info i always wondered what those numbers meant 18:17:03 Moneros decentralization in mining allows people to aquire some xmr in places where it is banned thankfully 18:17:22 How do I mint Monero? 18:17:25 yep. the magic of information. it can't be stopped. 18:18:14 jj1013[m], you set up mining software on your computer 18:18:46 moneromooo: sorry about your shitty day 18:19:05 moneromooo: Aren't you getting filthy rich as a Monero dev? Are you a monero millionaire? 18:19:21