00:00:18 <moneromooo> By "files", you mean part of the chain, or other files ?
00:00:22 <heynick> something like bittorrent with additional peers to obfuscate who's actually seeding ... nvm i have a lot more to research
00:00:47 <heynick> all files ... a whole website for that matter
00:01:41 <moneromooo> OK, I was going at it from the wrong direction. You want to see if anything from monero could be used to make ipfs more private then ?
00:03:32 <heynick> yes, take the privacy features of monero and put them into bittorrent or ipfs ... to be fair i only mentioned ipfs since it's closer to a "web" experience
00:03:59 <moneromooo> In that case nothing comes to mind. The biggest help I can think of would be large servers that eagerly cache what they see. Otherwise you always end up pointing to the original source.
00:04:20 <moneromooo> Like third party pinning services. But then it's little different from a hosting provider.
00:05:04 <heynick> why not normal peers instead of large servers
00:05:37 <heynick> think of zeronet or something similar
00:06:18 <heynick> sorry for throwing these technologies seemingly at random, but i'm having a hard time explaining what i actually mean
00:12:37 * bogsuv installing Cyclone 10 GX device support in Quartus
00:19:10 * selsta simulates a FPGA and gets 10MH/s
00:19:12 <selsta> w0w
00:26:42 <bogsuv> selsta: using Modelsim ?
00:27:13 <selsta> yeap
00:27:35 <PiRATA> .top10
00:27:36 <Wallet> PiRATA: Help: .top10 - Top 10 Sharers
00:27:54 <bogsuv> selsta: it's requre license from Intel
00:27:56 <PiRATA> .top10 30
00:27:57 <Wallet> PiRATA: Top 10 XMR Senders in past 30 day(s): #1 philkode: ≈0.06052 ● #2 rupee[m]: ≈0.03561 ● #3  @b​onuspot: ≈0.00633 ● #4 Bi​ll48105: ≈0.00452 ● #5 Tj2cool on discord: ≈0.00125 ● #6 FIBONACCI: ≈0.00097 ● #7 somethingUniqueR: ≈0.00086 ● #8 abcdefg_irssi: ≈0.00071 ● #9 bogsuv: ≈0.00043 ● #10 donkeydonkey[m]: ≈0.00015 ● Total: ≈0.11134
00:31:54 * bogsuv xz the entr0py
00:39:43 <entr0py> 10 MH eh
00:44:01 <botcoinnotbot[m]> [mooooooo]
00:45:07 <entr0py> mew
01:15:13 <riebwmnjrql> twitter.com/hyc_symas/status/1203709575226183683
01:15:14 <riebwmnjrql> Last time I got an award like that was in a primary school football team. It had three stars too and said that I'm special :')
01:15:14 <riebwmnjrql> I just binned it though instead of showing it off to naive groupies. What kind of preson takes a group achievement award and presents it as a proof of their individual prowess anyway?
05:20:43 <duso> o/
07:47:33 <uxnqlsivptqg> Do you also secretly wisth your mother was Howard's groupie? https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/bxl87y/it_has_been_a_5_years_since_monero_was_released/eq7qior/
09:07:06 <hmmp> .faucet
09:07:09 <Wallet> h​mmp: What is ​sqrt of FOUR
09:07:13 <hmmp> 2
09:07:13 <Wallet> hmmp: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000008 XMR to hmmp [7959fb8f] Wait ≈1 day 1 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01737447
09:19:02 <yeswepump> .faucet
09:19:04 <Wallet> ye​swepump: Sum of 1st million digits of p​i, times zero
09:19:08 <yeswepump> 0
09:19:09 <Wallet> yeswepump: @bonuspot tipped 0.000006 XMR to yeswepump [832bd58b] Wait ≈23 hrs 59 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01736847
09:19:15 <yeswepump> .balance
09:19:15 <Wallet> yeswepump: • Your balance is: 0.0000137 XMR (≈0.01 USD)
09:21:54 <CameronRuggles[m> .balance
09:21:54 <Wallet> CameronRuggles[m: Access denied for balance. Are you logged in?
09:25:29 <Inge-> .faucet
09:25:31 <Wallet> I​nge-: Squa​re is how many sides?
09:25:34 <Inge-> 4
09:25:35 <Wallet> Inge-: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000002 XMR to Inge- [d2608deb] Wait ≈23 hrs 59 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01736827
09:26:14 <Inge-> I'm not convinced the timer on that thing is correct
09:30:57 <Mochi101> .faucet
09:30:59 <Wallet> Mo​chi101: How ​many planets in Earth solar system after Pluto was banned
09:31:06 <Mochi101> 9
09:31:06 <Wallet> Mochi101: Oops that is not correct. Try again later. (No not immediately or I'll just ignore you..)
09:31:13 <Mochi101> 8?
09:31:20 <Inge-> indeed
09:31:37 <Mochi101> What about Uranus, is it still a planet?
09:31:38 <Inge-> you could argue 9 since pluto wasn't *banned* just reclassified
09:31:49 <Inge-> planet sized*
09:33:19 <Mochi101> The bot needs some real trivia... Like, "Who's the sexiest guy in #Monero?"
09:51:53 <sech1> .balance
09:51:53 <Wallet> sech1: Access denied for balance. Are you logged in?
09:55:59 <Mochi101> .faucet
09:56:01 <Wallet> Mo​chi101: First​ digit of pi
09:56:05 <Mochi101> 3.14
09:56:05 <Wallet> Mochi101: Oops that is not correct. Try again later. (No not immediately or I'll just ignore you..)
09:56:12 <Mochi101> fml
09:56:19 * Mochi101 reads
09:57:11 <Mochi101> Bill48105, you should compile stats on this and sell it to Google.
09:58:00 <louipc> what stat
09:58:43 <Mochi101> How effective his captchas are.
10:01:50 <azy> .faucet
10:01:51 <Wallet> ​azy: How many letters in ​MNC
10:01:53 <azy> 3
10:01:54 <Wallet> azy: @bonuspot tipped 0.000005 XMR to azy [c7134868] Wait ≈1 day 16 sec before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01735997
10:01:58 <azy> .balance
10:01:59 <Wallet> azy: • Your balance is: 0.0002042 XMR (≈0.08 USD)
10:02:03 <Mochi101> .faucet
10:02:04 <Wallet> Mochi101: @bonuspot tipped 0.000002 XMR to Mochi101 [58bdba8e] Wait ≈23 hrs 55 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01735797
10:02:11 <Mochi101> lol
10:02:19 <Mochi101> Tipped me out of pity.
10:03:23 <louipc> they should ask how many letters in your own nick to trip u up heheh
10:31:25 <Sideburns> hello
15:17:21 <eexvhxri> If only one of you gave Papa ChooChoo some TLC when I wrote a faster miner, instead of ignoring him, things could have happened differently https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/5lsfgt/_/dbz0jnp/
15:24:35 <apotheon> "I" and "him".  Hmm.
15:24:48 <apotheon> "I forgot I was writing in third person for a moment."
15:57:56 <hyc> LOL
17:20:40 <Bill48105> it's amusing seeing people pedantic over bot captchas lol
17:23:22 <Bill48105> they're intentionally worded the way they are to be fun & less likely for automated parsing. nuances in language like saying "banned" are easy for a person reading it to understand it means remove 1
17:24:01 <hyc> he's not een pretending to try to cover his tracks
17:24:29 <hyc> at this point tho he's more of a frenemy, the fact that he persists is an indicator that the project is still succeeding
17:30:16 <volantaryism1[m]> Imagine seething that hard for years 😂
17:33:11 <jj1013[m]> <Mochi101 "3.14"> It's just 3.
17:33:47 <Mochi101> no shit
17:34:31 <sech1> pi=3
17:34:56 <Mochi101> sech1, the question was 'the first digit of pi'
17:35:10 <Mochi101> and me being a dumbass...
17:35:51 * jj1013[m] > <@freenode_Mochi101:matrix.org> no shit
17:35:51 * jj1013[m] laughs silently.
18:24:20 <BigBoiiMike> Does anyone use CakeWallet?
18:24:25 <moneromooo> Yes.
18:24:34 <BigBoiiMike> I have a question maybe you can answer
18:25:22 <BigBoiiMike> So i made a exchange and i have a balance, i made 2 purchases and need to send 2 payments. I sent one payment, and now my available balance says 0 but my full balance says the correct amount.
18:25:35 <moneromooo> Wait 10 blocks.
18:25:41 <BigBoiiMike> ah gotcha
18:25:41 <moneromooo> Change is locked for 10 blocks.
18:25:50 <BigBoiiMike> Thank you
18:26:00 <BigBoiiMike> I like this monero its pretty slick
18:26:03 <moneromooo> That's because all your monero is made up of a single output.
18:26:34 <BigBoiiMike> Oh, So it can only handle one outgoing transaction at a time?
18:26:55 <hyc> no.... it can handle as many txns as you have separate coins
18:27:16 <hyc> if you break a $20 bill into 20 $1 bills it's the same idea
18:28:31 <Bill48105> rekt
18:28:46 <BigBoiiMike> one of the servers died?
18:29:06 <moneromooo> Or a $20 bill into 20 billion 10 millionths cent coins.
18:29:08 <Bill48105> matrix bridged users. they do that all the time
18:29:41 <Bill48105> now we'll get to see them all join back
18:30:19 <moneromooo> captainbeast hatchingeggs, now that's a bit creepy
18:30:42 <moneromooo> You can read sentences in join/part messages
18:30:49 <hyc> interesting, not seeing any of that on my end
18:31:08 <moneromooo> Maybe we got them slightly out of sequence ?
18:31:25 <moneromooo> I don't think IRC has a canonical sequence.
18:31:46 <Bill48105> some clients hide them or optional to see join/part
18:31:59 <hyc> yeah pretty sure I never disabled that option
18:32:10 <hyc> and I usually see IRC part msgs
18:32:25 <hyc> entered/left the room
18:32:37 <hyc> I wonder if some clients are config'd to not send any such msg
18:32:57 <Bill48105> the good news is it's a good test on if i fixed the excess flood issue for part/join which seems i have
18:55:11 <Pepin[m]> Hey, I've set up my full monero node a while back, however it looks like I have no incomming connections
18:55:12 <Pepin[m]> >64(out)+0(in) connections
19:27:01 <hyc> probably blocked by firewall
19:43:13 <Pepin[m]> I have port 18080 tcp/udp allowed though
19:45:22 <moneromooo> Does your router pass it through to the right machine though ?
19:48:28 <Pepin[m]> the machine `monerod` is on has both public ipv4 and ipv6 addresses
19:48:45 <Pepin[m]> is it possible that `monerod` is using only one interface for p2p?
19:49:00 <angrymonkeyboi[m> What mooo is saying is did you set up port forwarding on your router?
19:49:05 <Pepin[m]> i have interface with a NATed connection a interfaces with public addresses
19:49:32 <Pepin[m]> <angrymonkeyboi[m "What mooo is saying is did you s"> the machine is a router itself
19:50:03 <Pepin[m]>  * i have interface with a NATed connection a interfaces with public addresses (some of them tunnels etc.)
19:50:47 <angrymonkeyboi[m> 👀
19:51:23 <apotheon> Emoji just don't really tend to come through well in my font.
19:51:30 <apotheon> Is that a pair of eyes?
19:51:51 <Pepin[m]> I don't even have fonts with emojis installed :D
19:51:57 <nioc> 0_o
19:52:02 <nioc> or similar
19:52:09 <apotheon> I see.
19:52:47 <angrymonkeyboi[m> O_O
19:52:57 <Pepin[m]>  * i have interface with a NATed connection and an interfaces with public addresses (some of them tunnels etc.)
19:53:54 <angrymonkeyboi[m> <Pepin[m] "the machine is a router itself"> In that case, see if you can connect with the daemon from a different machine to see if it's reachable
19:55:18 <Pepin[m]> <angrymonkeyboi[m "In that case, see if you can con"> monerod provides restricted RPC on `0.0.0.0` and `::`, that works well
19:57:21 <angrymonkeyboi[m> sorry, that's all I had. I only set mine up for personal (local) use
19:58:10 <Pepin[m]> thanks anyways
20:00:10 <Pepin[m]> moneromooo: is it possible that `monerod` uses only one interface for p2p? I have a default route via a firewalled NATed connection, but have other interfaces with reachable public ipv4 addresses
20:01:56 <moneromooo> Most definitely.
20:05:06 <Pepin[m]> I also don't see any ipv6 addresses in sync_info, which is quite weird, as I'm running monerod with p2p-use-ipv6=1
20:05:34 <Pepin[m]> Well at least I finally have a real incentive to look around the codebase :D
20:48:33 <botcoinnotbot[m]> Hey, are Hungarian translations wanted in any capacity?
20:50:42 <hyc> I think all translations are welcome
20:51:09 <utxobr[m]> https://translate.getmonero.org/languages/hu/
21:02:27 <cabbage5> Hi all. I am looking to run Monero GUI (Linux) through Tor and am not finding support for this. Any help? (from 198.144.120.*)
21:03:43 <moneromooo> There is a contrib/tor/monero-over-tor.sh script which should help.
21:03:59 <moneromooo> Well, for monerod.
21:04:18 <cabbage5> Thanks, moneromooo. I don't know quite how to run that. Is there a command I run? (from 198.144.120.*)
21:04:20 <moneromooo> It creates a hidden service so you can connect your wallet to it.
21:05:41 <moneromooo> Yes, you run that script on the machine running monerod (ie, some vps). Then you should be able to run the GUI with torsocks to that hidden service, in theory.
21:07:26 <kulak> Is there an exchange I can buy monero at for WA state US residents?
21:07:39 <nioc> botcoinnotbot[m]: maybe try #monero-translations
21:07:59 <moneromooo> Try binance, kraken, bitfinex.
21:08:22 <moneromooo> Does your country have specific bans ?
21:08:25 <kulak> kreken does not operate in WA state.  I tried.
21:08:39 <donkeydonkey> maybe kucoin
21:09:33 <botcoinnotbot[m]> kulak: VPNs can help you get around geo restrictions
21:12:15 <cabbage5> Hi moneromooo. Thank you. Admittedly still over my head. Does getmonero.org have a step-by-step guide on this? I have not found it.  (from 198.144.120.*)
21:14:15 <moneromooo> Can't think of one.
21:14:51 <moneromooo> ANONYMITY_NETWORKS.md has doc on this, though it's not a step by step do-this-to-get-it-working IIRC.
21:16:32 <botcoinnotbot[m]> anyone have the link to the transaction with over 4000 ring members?
21:17:48 <jj1013[m]> <botcoinnotbot[m] "anyone have the link to the tran"> ... what?
21:19:22 <botcoinnotbot[m]> in breaking monero Sarang mentions that someone once made a tx with over 4000 before the fixed 11
21:35:26 <kulak> I am in US and bitfinex does not operate there.
21:36:26 <moneromooo> How did we manage to end up with some internet services not operating in some geographical places... :S
21:38:11 <Mochi101> no kidding hey
21:38:30 <Mochi101> I get blocked by US web sites based on geolocation all the time too
21:38:31 <gingeropolous> almost like it was a bad idea to think that you could bolt on privacy to an internet standard after the fact
21:38:49 <Mochi101> Many US new sources just outright block EU.
21:38:53 <Mochi101> news
21:39:16 <nioc> or is it EU blocking because of GDPR
21:39:21 <Mochi101> Can't really blame them though. EU Communists
21:39:48 <Mochi101> No nioc.
21:39:58 * moneromooo ponders whether communists are preferable to fascists...
21:40:03 <nioc> well from here that is an issue
21:40:05 <Mochi101> For now they don't do that.
21:40:11 <Pepin[m]> Will monero help to get out of EU? Hmm
21:40:25 <nioc> thought maybe it affected the other way as well
21:40:47 <Mochi101> They'd like to have a Great Firewall as well... believe me.
21:44:05 <charolastra> it's not the EU that is for tracking everyones very move. so who's the communists now
21:46:00 <botcoinnotbot[m]> moneromooo: hopefully crypto can make more people stop giving a fuck what regulators in their countries think
21:46:01 <moneromooo> I think half of them want to, half doesn't or something. Better than China Russia or USA but still not super duper good.
21:51:19 <Pepin[m]> Housing in my country is more expensive than in big USA cities, despite USA wages being multiple times larger than here. What a fucking shithole.
22:00:27 <kulak> binance does not do Monero,  kraken - does not operate in WA state; bitfinex - does not operate in US.  robinhood - does not trade monery.  any other option I missed?  I am not going to do VPN...
22:01:02 <donkeydonkey> did you try kucoin
22:01:28 <Pepin[m]> Buy whatever on binance and trade into XMR?
22:02:57 <apotheon> botcoinnotbot[m]: I care what regulators think here even with cryptocurrencies, because what regulators think determines how I work the privacy angle.
22:04:08 <apotheon> 21:39 < nioc> or is it EU blocking because of GDPR
22:04:24 <apotheon> It's probably more that the companies in question block EU visitors because they don't want to deal with GDPR.
22:04:24 <moneromooo> Push comes to shove, there is morphtoken, sideshift, fixedfloat.
22:05:44 <apotheon> moneromooo: Unfortunately, I don't really trust visiting sideshift.ai because it seems to use CloudFlare.
22:06:09 <apotheon> I don't know about morphtoken or fixedfloat.  I don't think I've heard of those before.
22:06:23 <nioc> apotheon: yes
22:06:48 <apotheon> Oh, I've looked at FixedFloat.  It doesn't use CloudFlare.
22:06:56 <apotheon> I haven't used it, though.
22:07:32 <moneromooo> Yeah. Not sure what we can do about cloudflare though. It's like the mafia. Wherever you go, they're there and you can't do anything about it.
22:08:08 <Pepin[m]> Why don't you trust using cloudflare?
22:08:30 <Pepin[m]> You still have to trust the site itself, the middleman doesn't change much
22:08:37 <apotheon> It's a big centralized thing that tracks a bunch of shit
22:08:38 <apotheon> .
22:08:43 <moneromooo> AFAIK cloudflare has the sites' secret SSL keys and can MITM their https traffic.
22:08:53 <apotheon> It's also US based.
22:09:00 <moneromooo> So, you connect with SSL/HTTP to some site but... hey, they're still reading it.
22:09:01 <apotheon> and yeah, what moneromooo said
22:09:23 <moneromooo> It's almost certainly a US NSA plant. And if not, it's almost certanly pwned by them.
22:09:23 <Quotes> NSA? Morono protects me.
22:09:44 <moneromooo> And maybe various other TLAs. It's way too juicy a target to get left alone
22:10:02 <Pepin[m]> Yeah, but what, the site itself gets to look at the traffic too.
22:10:11 <apotheon> I don't really speculate about things being explicitly in bed with the NSA, generally, but the NSA likely has fingers in there even if it's not company policy to have an open door for the NSA.
22:10:16 <Pepin[m]> Hiding from cloudflare is not a solution for anynomity
22:10:35 <apotheon> Hiding from CloudFlare is a solution to reducing the number of "trusted" parties.
22:10:36 <Mochi101> What country are you in Pepin[m]? Singapore?
22:10:40 <moneromooo> Wat... So... next time you talk dirty to your SO, you'd be fine about some stranger listening in, because your SO also hears it ?
22:10:49 <apotheon> right
22:10:52 <moneromooo> What is that kind of argument -_-
22:10:54 <apotheon> that's another way to put it
22:10:58 <charolastra> the sites are seperated but cloudfare will build a profile on you because they can read nearly 100% of your traffic
22:11:32 <Mochi101> vpn
22:11:55 <charolastra> and for what they can't directly sniff, they confinced firefox to implement that "secure dns" stuff that terminates on their network
22:12:01 <apotheon> It's one-stop shopping for malicious security crackers and TLAs, plus CloudFlare may well be selling data in large masses to other companies.
22:12:17 <Pepin[m]> Also let's not forget that the majority of guys here use backdoored x86 platforms...
22:12:26 <apotheon> har
22:12:56 <apotheon> It's difficult to find a way around that with hardware that still does what you need, unfortunately.  I'm hoping that advancing technology and RISC-V will help us get around it some day.
22:13:05 <moneromooo> And they make it much harder for tor users to use the web. They claim they love tor but they give website owners an easy to use "block tor" option while claiming "we did not push that option, we let the website do it so it's not our failt we really love tor".
22:13:09 <moneromooo> Fucking twats.
22:13:11 * botcoinnotbot[m] uploaded an image: (86KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/MEayatSdcxMCBrbnYltbTsij/GOOGLE-CLOUD-EXPLOITATION1383148810.webp >
22:13:19 <apotheon> Pepin[m]: Are you saying we shouldn't use a privacy-oriented cryptocurrency because everyone's being surveilled anyway?
22:13:28 <charolastra> he is
22:13:32 <apotheon> Pepin[m]: Why bother with Monero on Android, iOS, and Intel stuff?
22:13:54 <apotheon> Just use your credit card with Apple Pay and whatever the fuck Google calls its shit.
22:14:20 <charolastra> post some dick picks while you're at it
22:14:41 <Mochi101> No, please don't.
22:14:53 <Mochi101> ok ok, just little ones
22:14:55 <botcoinnotbot[m]> all corps based in the USA are back dooredper the patriot act by the NSA
22:15:08 <apotheon> CloudFlare also tends to fuck over anyone who isn't using Firefox or a Blink-based browser . . . and maybe some shit specifically on Apple platforms, but even most (independent) WebKit browsers get fucked by CloudFlare's captcha.
22:15:13 <Pepin[m]> apotheon: no, I'm just saying theres not a good reason to not use a crypto site simply for it using cloudflare
22:15:31 <Pepin[m]> Cloudflare is not the only mitm by the way, there is also AWS and others
22:15:44 <apotheon> Mochi101: Only little dicks . . . ?
22:15:59 <charolastra> apotheon: how do they fuck those different browsers?
22:16:15 <apotheon> Pepin[m]: If there's another site that is about as good and doesn't use CloudFlare, I think that's a win.
22:16:20 <moneromooo> I don't want to pus words in your mouth, but are you claiming that because it's not perfect we shold not try to do better because it won't be perfect ?
22:16:22 <apotheon> Pepin[m]: I don't understand why you don't think so.
22:16:47 <apotheon> charolastra: They treat them like bots and make you try the captcha thing, then usually just loop instead of letting users through.
22:16:48 <moneromooo> If so, I'll just put your on /ignore right away for trolling and for being the kind of person that prevents humanity from improving.
22:17:12 <Norkle> .faucet
22:17:15 <Wallet> N​orkle: Snow White + he​r dwarfs
22:17:20 <Norkle> 8
22:17:21 <Wallet> Norkle: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000001 XMR to Norkle [754986fc] Wait ≈1 day 56 sec before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01727457
22:17:23 <moneromooo> (I read it that way but it might not have been he intent)
22:18:26 <apotheon> It seems like the intent is that I should ignore whether CloudFlare has a tap on the line.
22:18:31 <apotheon> I'm really not sure why.
22:19:23 <Pepin[m]> Yeah, that's def not the intention :D also let's not forget that some sites are simply forced to use cloudflare, not everyone has the $$$ for ddos proof infrastructure and connectivity
22:19:52 <moneromooo> I think the person making the argument might realize what they're saying if we rephrase as: Alice says she'll stay clear of any place where Bob, a known groper, is staying. Then Charles tells here why is she doing this since Dave is also a groper.
22:19:54 <fibonacci> .bal
22:19:54 <charolastra> "nice site you have there. would be a pitty if something happens to it"
22:19:55 <Wallet> fibonacci: 0.00001 XMR (≈$0)
22:20:01 <fibonacci> Rich
22:20:23 <Pepin[m]> My point is, cloudflare being used on a site doesn't really change much, since you still have to trust the site itself, which may be backdoored exactly like cloudflare is.
22:21:16 <apotheon> If the site is otherwise trustworthy, using CloudFlare is a clear and obvious net loss.
22:21:40 <moneromooo> Your argument is "why take precautions looking both sides before crossing the street since you miss a car just rounding the corner".
22:21:42 <Pepin[m]> Yeah, that's true
22:21:53 <moneromooo> It's *better*, not perfect.
22:22:08 <apotheon> If you give the site a 50% chance or being otherwise trustworthy, and it's using CloudFlare, you've now reduced the trustworthiness of things from 50% to 0%.
22:22:25 <apotheon> I'd rather have a 50% chance.
22:22:44 <apotheon> (I also think that with some of these the chance is notably higher than 50%.)
22:22:50 <apotheon> (except for CloudFlare)
22:23:13 <moneromooo> I mean if you'd argue it's too much of a pain etc, fair enough. But claiming you might end up screwed anyway so let's increase the chance you get screwed, well, that's wtf.
22:23:53 <apotheon> yep
22:24:13 <apotheon> moneromooo: It's times like this I'm glad you're a prolific contributor to Monero.
22:24:47 <apotheon> apologies if I understate your involvement
22:24:49 <Pepin[m]> Well you shouldn't be trusting any party to not get screwed
22:24:57 <apotheon> do nothing, then
22:25:07 <apotheon> You have to effectively trust someone eventually.
22:25:19 <apotheon> . . . or just sit in a cave until you die of thirst, I suppose.
22:25:36 <apotheon> The key is to make rational choices about it, carefully, according to your priorities.
22:26:28 <Pepin[m]> Yeah :/
22:26:29 <moneromooo> Sadly, I often forget about cloudflare shit because when it doesn't spam you with captchas, it's transparent. Then you forget about the slient MITM.
22:26:42 <moneromooo> So it's hard to make a rsational choice here.
22:26:58 <apotheon> moneromooo: Turn off client side scripting by default, and you'll see CloudFlare stick out like a sore thumb a lot more.
22:27:10 <Pepin[m]> How do we deal with the cloudflare problem then? Its clear there is a lot of demand for such a service.
22:27:40 <apotheon> (especially over Tor)
22:28:04 <apotheon> Pepin[m]: Make decisions about what sites you're willing to visit when they use CloudFlare.
22:28:20 <moneromooo> Well, one solution would be to buy it and disband it. But it requires shitloads of money, and someone else would make another anyway.
22:28:28 <Pepin[m]> You could also blackhole all cloudflare IPS, but that is a bit extreme :D
22:28:54 <moneromooo> Well, there are sites that use cloudflare that I'd rather use rather that not. THe decision is per site.
22:29:07 <moneromooo> So blackholing isn't a good solution either.
22:29:09 <apotheon> yep
22:29:39 <apotheon> I'd say that having scripting turned off by default over Tor is kind of a necessity.
22:29:47 <apotheon> It shows you a lot of places you shouldn't visit.
22:30:00 <apotheon> In fact, client-side scripting itself is not trustworthy a lot of the time.
22:30:28 <apotheon> Outside of Tor, I2P, or something like that, you presumably don't have as high a privacy expectation, so it's not as much of an issue.
22:30:53 <apotheon> You could blackhole them for the browser config you use with Tor, and not for the browser config you use for clearnet.
22:31:15 <Pepin[m]> But again, small websites would have a really hard time without cloudflare. The solution might be new internet...
22:31:38 <anon_82641[m]> Have you seen gemini protocol?
22:32:06 <Pepin[m]> Not really usable, but it's fun to tinker with I suppose
22:32:15 <apotheon> Doesn't gemini lack encryption?
22:32:22 <apotheon> I recall hearing that somewhere.
22:32:25 <anon_82641[m]> https://gemini.circumlunar.space/
22:32:36 <apotheon> I'd say we could use gemini a lot more if it does support encryption.
22:32:40 <anon_82641[m]> No client side scripting
22:32:42 <apotheon> . . . or use I2P a lot more.
22:33:04 <moneromooo> Thing is, the cloudlare using websites I'd prefer to keep using don't use it :)
22:33:05 <apotheon> . . . and get people to stop throwing piles of client side scripting all the damned time.
22:33:18 <anon_82641[m]> Both client side and server side encryption, no reliance on cert authorities
22:33:23 <moneromooo> (well, I assume, and I'd be utterly flabbergasted if they did)
22:33:45 <moneromooo> IIRC gemini is very barebones.
22:33:59 <moneromooo> (for good reasons, mind)
22:34:00 <Pepin[m]> Gemini doesn't solve the cloudflare problem though
22:34:18 <Pepin[m]> Shall Gemini ever become popular, cloudflares for Gemini will emerge
22:34:21 <moneromooo> Probably doesn't, since CF is lower level, yes.
22:34:28 <anon_82641[m]> The protocol is barebones
22:34:38 <anon_82641[m]> The web clients support image and rendering of other media
22:35:09 <Bill48105> i missed the cloudflare hate memo
22:35:25 <anon_82641[m]> Being specialized with text removes the need for cloudflare
22:35:34 <apotheon> Bill48105: MITM
22:35:53 <Bill48105> is there known exploit or just fretting
22:36:07 <Bill48105> obviously it adds risk
22:36:35 <Pepin[m]> Well cloudflare can read all the traffic
22:36:47 <Bill48105> so does every router traffic passes but that's different for unbroken encryption
22:36:51 <Pepin[m]> There's a conspiracy cf works with NSA etc..
22:36:51 <Quotes> NSA? Morono protects me.
22:37:08 <Bill48105> nsa runs cloudflare don't they LoL
22:37:27 <Bill48105> dunno it's good to be aware but not tin foil hat paranoid
22:37:56 <Bill48105> reminds me of people who think there's gps trackers in USD bills
22:38:31 <Bill48105> obviously they can track money.. but not like that LoL
22:39:50 <anon_82641[m]> <Pepin[m] "Not really usable, but it's fun "> Definitely: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/mltp21/reddit_but_upvotes_are_monero_transactions/
22:40:09 <Pepin[m]> <anon_82641[m] "Being specialized with text remo"> No, cloudflare is mostly used as a ddos mitigating service
22:40:17 <Bill48105> don't some sites only use cloudflare to verify you upon entry then hand off session for the site up talk directly not thru them?
22:40:41 <apotheon> 22:36 < Bill48105> so does every router traffic passes but that's different for unbroken encryption
22:40:52 <apotheon> CloudFlare gets a free pass on the encryption.
22:40:59 <apotheon> Routers don't.
22:41:16 <Bill48105> right read what i said closer
22:41:22 <Pepin[m]> <Bill48105 "don't some sites only use cloudf"> They could be using only their captcha, but otherwise all traffic goes though them
22:41:26 <apotheon> What you said is unclear.
22:41:29 <anon_82641[m]> <Pepin[m] "No, cloudflare is mostly used as"> Haven't tor websites solved this problem?
22:41:43 <Bill48105> right so I'm
22:41:54 <Bill48105> in that case it's moot
22:42:06 <apotheon> CloudFlare has solved the problem by making it effectively impossible for many browsers to reach the site at all.
22:42:11 <Bill48105> if they only use captcha
22:42:47 <apotheon> Endless captcha loops are kinda user-hostile.
22:42:47 <Bill48105> who signed the cert?
22:42:54 <Bill48105> you leave
22:43:00 <Bill48105> you love them
22:43:44 <anon_82641[m]> <apotheon "Endless captcha loops are kinda "> Yet everyone uses them, even with cloudflare
22:43:52 <Pepin[m]> <apotheon "Endless captcha loops are kinda "> Well I have to say googles captcha is worse :D
22:44:33 <apotheon> Many sits use CloudFlare captcha, yeah.  It sucks.
22:44:43 <apotheon> It's also a good indication they don't want many people's business.
22:44:59 <anon_82641[m]> You can have a gemini website require a client cert and refuse to process requests that don't have them
22:45:08 <Pepin[m]> There is a better captcha though: https://iqcaptcha.us.to/
22:45:42 <apotheon> Google almost-everything is crap.
22:46:32 <anon_82641[m]> Any thoughts on hcaptcha?
22:51:36 <Bill48105> man i hate typing on phone lol
22:58:30 <apotheon> heading out for some dinner-related stuff
22:58:33 <apotheon> ta
23:01:09 <Bill48105> good luck and enjoy
23:02:55 <botcoinnotbot[m]> Pepin: its not a conspiracy since the snowden leaks... the patriot act has a section that forces all companies located within the US to hand over all user data
23:03:21 <botcoinnotbot[m]> especially if that data comes from outside of the US
23:04:15 <botcoinnotbot[m]> section 215 I think, not to sure tho