anon_82641[m]> Looking forward to stallman's response <-- "It's a trap"

Meeting at #monero-events for Monero Village at Defcon planning staff in about seven hours.

We (Monero Village) just had the only message on Reddit removed by moderators.

Reason: Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/Monero.

Moderators remove posts from feeds for a variety of reasons, including keeping communities safe, civil, and true to their purpose.

This is quite ridiculous. Those of us who dislike Facebook, Reddit, and other antisocial networks usually don't post there even if we think our informative messages would positively help the community.

So posting a informative message and having it blocked is quite strange.

The title of the rejected message is 'Second Monero Village staff meeting'.

It was 25 lines long (14 without whitespace.)

needmoney90: ^

link?

msvb-mob: ^

And are you sure it was "removed by moderators" and not a bot?

needmoney90: I think a bot created the message that the post was 'removed by moderators'.

Thanks Inge-.

Because like. I'm not sure if you've noticed. But we don't have any reason to have issue here....calling it ridiculous seems a bit of an overreaction for an automated action.

You could consider calming down and just linking the post like everyone else who gets filtered by a bot :/

Maybe the word is wrong, I can't think of another one. The criticism is not intended to be offensive, if you prefer a rewording then 'a filter that rejects messages of this kind is very poor.'

Link the post. I'll take a look.

I'll try to find a link now.

I thsnk you bith for the work you do for Monero <3

thank both* obviously a mobile phone keyboard is not for me.

How can one find a message that was removed in Reddit?

It appears we totally lost the content of the Monero Village announcement, this is too bad. I don't see it anywhere in my account, and it's not searchable either.

Thanks for trying anyway needmoney90. Hopefully see you later today during the staff meeting on #monero-events.

The message in your inbox should have it

a link to the removed post

either that or your post histor

history

You too Inge-, and bring the neighbors, family, and some strangers as well.

there is nothing a mod can do to make a post black hole like that

Are you sure you have no link to it? It would be very strange if it does not exist anymore

What does your inbox message say?

What is the link to the post history (just find your own and share the last /sub/location/?

should be reddit.com/u/username

Clicking the envelope icon that tooltips 'Messages' and selecting 'All' and then wildcard searching the page for 'Village' results in zero finds.

it should be one of the most recent things in your post history.

I found it by following your suggestion /u/username/ that is the history.

The link is:

...wait for it.

No talking.

According to the rejection system, 'Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/Monero.

Moderators remove posts from feeds for a variety of reasons, including keeping communities safe, civil, and true to their purpose.'

This is strange - It's not actually in modqueue

automod appears to have removed it

I believe some link in your post has triggered reddit's filters themselves

It was not on our end, for sure.

In case we need filter improvements, let's please remember the reason while reading the actual text. And you may then agree with my choice of word 'rediculous.'

This is not one of our filters.

So control over the filter that removed this is somewhere else, right?

Reddit did it

there is no possible control we can have on the subreddit level to handle that post, for some reason. Other than manually approving.

But it doesnt even show up in our modqueue for approval

Okay. What do you suggest needmoney90? We have no ability to pass the filter right? Should I just repost the text?

I approved it.

Next time just link the post and let me handle it, if it seems to be black holed for some reason.

A very strange reason of course, if you read the text I can't imagine a more mild semantic content.

Thank you needmoney90 for taking the time to find and approve the message.

glad it worked out

sethsimmons: loved your comments to Jimmy Song. To the point and no unecessary Monero shilling (which was already handled by the WBD podcast anyway)

rehrar: you know with some of the research tasks being funnelled towards CypherStack - what happens to the rep and goodwill (IP in most jurisdictions) from the research?

Inge-: Jimmy Song is a class A idiot

said it before and will continue saying it over and over and over

midipoet: I think that was answered already

ah ok - where?

everything from the CCS will be copyright monero project

if that's what you meant

thats the tangible outputs

it's the intangible outputs

ie. "CypherStack devs create Triptych"

i only ask, as i have seen these sorts of issues flare up...

^ not in Monero mind you - just in general business land

Triptych was made before sarang joined Cypher Stack so that wouldn't be a thing.

But you're asking if someone under my employ made a brand new privacy protocol, for example?

midipoet:

Monero Village at Defcon 29 (2021 hybrid hotel and online) meeting on #monero-events in one minute.

rehrar: no, I don't think that is the concern. It's more whether Cypher Stack LLC (aside from the research) benefits from being funded by the CCS for Monero research

for example, if some other firm employed Cypher Stack on the back of the work (and reputation) funded by the CCS for Monero

I don't necessarily have the answer, mind you

bigboy: say again. You weren't voiced, but you are now. Sorry.

Nor do I know what is strictly good or bad

Like, if sarang has his own LLC, and his LLC was funded/invoiced by the CCS, then at least it would all be self contained.

...umm. yes Cypher Stack will benefit in these ways.

The way it is now, Cypher Stack receives the goodwill, brand building, and reputation, alongside sarang.

Correct.

midipoet: please explain the parts where you think this is bad.

hi im a computer science student interested in contributing to monero, where should i start?

rehrar: I don't necessarily think it's bad. I just see quite a lot of resources being pointed towards you and Cypher Stack LLC

And I wonder if that is the best idea

Not a judgement on you or Cypher Stack, but in general

bigboy: Are you actively doing mining, running a node, using the core wallet, or speaking a foreign language? I'm not sure where to start but they are relevant questions aren't they?

bigboy: what are your current skills? We can see about connecting you to a place that fits with your current skill set.

It's like, we scream decentralisation, and then house a pack of Devs and points CCS funds to a LLC

So I wonder how that is different to a foundation

hint. It's not

If anything, it's shadier!

Lol

Most devs are independently on the CCS or volunteer.

The majority of devs have no affiliation with a company, which is very VERY different than a foundation that employs the majority, if not all, of devs for a project.

What other things does Cypher Stack handle besides one researcher and a sysadmin?

I know some python, sql, networking (Cisco IOS), some powershell. I am interested in using this as an opportunity to improve my knowledge about coding, networking and cryptography in general.

Isn't sysadmin v/similar to DevOps?

Or am I completely mistaken?

Not to mention there was talk on the GitLab of Firo also hiring research

So if sarang gets folded into Cypher Stack, does Cypher Stack get that contract as well?

As opposed to, I don't know. Monero Research Lab LLC, Foundation, or whatever

That contract with Firo is literally a Cypher Stack contract.

Cypher Stack has sarang as an employee and has contracted him out to one project, and wants to contract him out to this project also.

Where does that end?

When he runs out of hours to contract out? :P

Sure sure.

Looks, up to ye. I don't think the whole thing has been that transparent, and hasn't for a while

What is not transparent about this?

wen hats for bats?

Well at the moment, the CCS is being asked to pay an LLC

bigboy: you're not forgotten, don't worry.

We have no idea what happens in between

I'll talk to you soon. Feel free to send me a PM.

and unisex thongs

We just trust that all is above board as we trust you and sarang

midipoet: sarang gets a paycheck, Cypher Stack makes a profit.

I see

Well, that's more transparent then the CCS

<bigboy "I know some python, sql, network"> Good guides to get up to speed: web.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf masteringmonero.com

The CCS outlines deliverables dude.

thank you I will look at this after my exams

rehrar: as far as I understood it, it didn't outline the profit margin that Cypher Stack LLC?

The profit margin was not outlined, no.

And that you expect it to be is a little silly. :)

rehrar: perhaps

I won't engage any further, lest I say something I regret.

I don't agree with the set up

But carry on, if you feel that's the way to go

Cool. Someone else is free to poach sarang from me with better pay and benefits and set up what they think is the correct way for all of this to be done.

You're absolutely free to voice your concerns, even if they're harsh midipoet. I would never ask someone to not speak what they're thinking just to spare my feelings.

<midipoet "We have no idea what happens in "> General community consensus is obtained about whether or not to merge the CCS, same as it's ever been

At the end of the day, some people need a stable check and/or healthcare benefits. Unfortunately in some countries like the US, universal healthcare is not a thing so US based contributors can't be faulted for utilizing a system that gives them that desired stability. Even if say, Core was to do something like use Open Collective to get stable automatic reoccuring donations, that still wouldn't address other

things like healthcare persay. Granted one could pay for it privately, but I think hopefully the point is carried

tl;dr: It would be nice if there was a magical 'decentralized' solution that gave USA contributors money and easy healthcare, but there's not TMK, so we have to make do with reality

* tl;dr: It would be nice if there was a magical 'decentralized' solution that gave USA contributors stable money and easy healthcare, but there's not TMK, so we have to make do with reality

I'm personally a fan of more money going into privacy research, more stability for researchers, more competition / more coins challenging each other to drive better products. Normalizing privacy and getting people talking about it is a great thing. It's like when multiple physical businesses of the same category naturally group together in meatspace and create go-to destinations for certain product.

* I'm personally a fan of more money going into privacy research, more stability for researchers, more competition / more coins challenging each other to drive better products. Normalizing privacy and getting people talking about it is a great thing. It's like when multiple physical businesses of the same category naturally group together in meatspace and create go-to destinations for certain product.. In

the long run, it's good for everyone.

Yes, I think it's worth noting that if the community is not careful and fails to provide the stability some researchers or coders they desire, there's the very real risk they'll understandably contribute to a coin that might have a pre-mine, etc so they can continue advancing privacy and getting paid, and that project may have a license that isn't compatible w/ Monero's

xmrscott[m]: a not for profit entity could provide all, no?

which would essentially be a Foundation, no?

you can make a foundation

yes, i know that thanks

but i am not the one in need of one

ok, someone else can

i am suggesting an alternative

sure, why bother

we have an LLC

and it makes profit from the CCS!

win win

rant over

<midipoet "but i am not the one in need of "> People who speak two languages (including English) don't need to contribute that second language to the project, but they do because they perceive a need

If folk truly believe there's value to make a non-profit foundation for the project, they'd do so

xmrscott[m]: why would they, when instead they can make profit?

we are literally building the exact same system as the system before, just with different tech

So make something new that solves the problem then. Easy.

the problem is solved, and was never my problem in the first place anyway!

Glad to hear it's solved

Unfortunately I'm not a rich man to be able to make a non-profit and run it with out of the goodness of my heart. I gotta make a living.

midipoet: if you think it'd be better to make a non profit instead of me making money off of this, we can consider withdrawing the proposal.

i don't have the answer to this.

Or if you're suggesting neither non profit nor LLC then the end result of a withdrawn proposal can still be the same.

i mean, my ideology is my own and i am not even sure if its "right"

Well I certainly don't want to build a reputation for myself of taking advantage of the community or abusing my positions of power or abusing my goodwill.

If you really think something like this would do that, it's something for me to consider.

i don't think you are abusing the community

but i think it's fair for the community to know that there is a profit margin somewhere to an LLC

that is a different model than before

and if that then the way we want to go

well. i better fire up my own company for the next CCS i do, i tell you that much

why wouldn't i?

its +20% straight away

yay

Fair because anyone who does business with a community like Monero should expect a greater degree of transparency? Or fair because the aforementioned stuff is true, and doubly so for me as a person in a position of power?

how is this more advantageous for sarang than the previous arrangement?

Because if just the first, well, again, we didn't demand profit margins from quarkslab or trail of bits.

or him just setting up some legal fictitious entity to appease insurance companies, etc?

So past precedent says we don't enforce a higher standard in anyone and everyone working with the community.

That said, if someone was to outright say they expect more of me because of my position, role, and power in this community, that would be a valid point.

But nobody outright says it. Just beats around the bush.

And I don't play those games. ;)

sarang work for the community is worth X

what's the advantage of him going through this procedure where it's X-Y

so a netloss for him

ComplyLast: this has been answered several times actually.

the stability of the paycheck

and the insurance angle

but I still fail to grasp it tbh

BinaryFate came up with a good one too of getting mortgages or the like. It's much cleaner.

thanks

I guess his own LLC would provide much of that

hence my question

You can't walk into a bank to get a mortgage for a house and show them CCS proposals as income.

just curious

I don't care if you make a buck

ComplyLast: true. But you're assuming he wants to run an LLC.

just seems inefficient

You're assuming he wants to do the taxes, the filing, the upkeep, etc.

All of which is unpaid work btw.

if he is your only employer and also your own source of incoming

He is not.

I guess he doesn't that's fairly obvious

oh ok

that part I didn't know

Cypher Stack has been around for three years.

We were primarily a design firm before. But we've expanded. Took on a sysadmin and sarang as well as the three UI/UX/graphic designers/illustrators that we have now.

ok

so it's essentially like hiring one of those firms that we do for audits

if you ever try to, or become close to, becoming blockstream of Monero we will have to fuck you up though.

(:

I'm happy to answer these kinds of questions or concerns. If you have any more, lay them on me.

ComplyLast midipoet

No concerns, no further questions

Discussion is good. It shows we don't accept these as they are handed to us. Important for sure.

thanks for the input

I don't see any meaningful difference on hiring your entity for this type of stuff

while hiring entities for audits

If anything you'd be closer to the monero ecosystem so potentially some merits there

You guys will absolutely (and already have) get benefits. Free work out of me and my people, and my interests are aligned with Monero.

yes, i agree. lets continue to hire companies from the CCS

outstanding

midipoet: sarcasm doesn't convey well over the internet. Best to speak plainly.

I don't say it's great midipoet

I don't see a difference

the precedent is well established

midipoet: genuinely interested then. How do you suggest we do audits?

Approach individuals from audit companies to do this stuff on the side?

i never said i had the answers

LOL!

I mean, you need to have some midipoet

why so funny?

right

well what about a not for profit?

a foundation?

a charity?

We should NOT hire companies from the CCS. But I have no alternative of how some important tasks that companies might do would get done.

a co-op?

any of the above

anyway I think there's a huge demand for anonymous individuals to continue working on monero

instead of paying a profit margin to a LLC?

ComplyLast: agree

or even turn MRL into a not-for-profit

midipoet: ew. That last one would be even worse.

it may well be

i don't know

midipoet, the only rule I can potentially agree (emphasis on potentially) would be that funds owned by core shouldn't (maybe) be used to fund for proffit ventures

(it might lead to some fuckery and dubious practices)

ComplyLast: I think that's reasonable.

well there is the whole for profit thing from the regulators

but if individuals want to, more power to them

but ANYWAY!

i won't get into that, as i know its not the reason for this chat

but its an aside, that's for sure

If I want to donate to something, knowing it's a for profit venture and I still think it would benefit monero, why shouldn't i?

I don't quite understand the aside.

Can you elaborate?

genuinely didn't understand the wording

same thing for Cake Wallet doing a CCS

would you be against it midipoet?

or coral reef?

or the audits

rehrar, the FATF wish for developers who are instigating code on a for profit basis to be held liable for how that code is used

CCS is just a ficticious construction where individuals are free to choose which projects to support

ie. they (or the company) is teh VASP

*the

something about that money lining their pockets or promoting bitcoin adoption

monero community has self esteem problems

midipoet, that hasn't come to pass yet

no, it hasn't

which is why i said "an aside"

if it does it's a sarang and rehrar problem

midipoet: ah, got it

not Monero

but i would hazard a guess that's the direction it will go

i don't want to speak for sarang, but he has always been wary of regulators going after devs

they might

and now falls into a "for profit" relationship with a blockchain network

If we get there we can reassess.

For now, non-issue indeed.

not everyone wants to take moneromoo route

and that's fine

people have different threat models, prioritize stuff differently, and that's something we should respect

ComplyLast: of course, it's fine - but i think it's also fair that the community knows that an LLC is taking profit as well (as it was not the case before)

i can not be ok with it, while others are

that's fine as well!

As I said the only problem I see is using core funds because of the potential for funny business

imo it's clearly stated that Cypher Stack LLC, a for-profit company, has hired and is contracting out sarang for this work. Profit is implied.

If you want me to clearly state "Cypher Stack LLC will be making profit on this endeavor" for the people that can't see the blatantly obvious, I can add it to the proposal.

But calling this a failure of transparency is silly. It's like looking through a crystal clear window, and an individual closing their eyes tightly and complaining they can't see through the window. It's not the window's fault.

all that matters is the monero community's money going towards monero

otherwise you're getting played

eventually the ccs will become a joke

so will monero

if you ignore that risk anyway

endogenic: do you think the proposal we're discussing doesn't go to Monero?

not saying thay

Ah. Just a general statement.

well sarang is also employed through Cypher Stack LLC on other networks

you said that yourself

no. Sarang is employed by Cypher Stack

and is contracted out to other networks

that's what i said?

No. Your wording implies that Cypher Stack only exists as some sort of pass-through entity but the real employment comes from the projects. This is not true. Sorry for arguing semantics here, but some people have geniuinely thought this from the get go.

rehrar

let's say CCS pays Cypher Stack LLC for research

then research is good

Firo come along

and hire Cypher Stack LLC for said research + more research

rehrar i'm suggesting the way people can protect monero and judge whether something is good for it or not

endogenic: gotcha

midipoet: ok...let's say that? So what?

Or, let's say I have no active contracts and have sarang do the research I want him to do. Since he's my employee I still pay his salary.

rehrar: where does it end?

What the fuck do you even mean by this question?

The problem is simply things being taken from Monero with our partial consent

devs just flaunting services across chains?

should we hire in devs from other companies too?

yes

midipoet: if they will do work for Monero in exchange for money, yes.

now the question is how do you tell if something is for Monero and what % of it is for monero

endogenic: ye

When you take away the precedent of an independent researcher being able to be successfully funded by the community

yes, it's now a company we are paying for services

we may as well invoice them too

helps with tax

midipoet: in the real world, people pay companies for services

rehrar: thanks for the heads up

funnily i didn't know this!

no problem, you seemed genuinely confused

indeed

Even individuals like graphic artists send out invoices as my partner can attest

i was of the opinion that people contributing to open source, didn't

and that the CCS was a novel way of ensuring that contributors could get rewarded

but its obviously not

Anyways, I try to answer stuff like this because if I don't people get mad at me for not being transparent, and I want it to be shown I'm making this proposal in good faith.

and has changed into something else

But I have my limits of time to waste, and I've reached them. :)

mate, i checked out ages ago - and you asked me to come back into the convo

i was trying to work on the FATF response

Alright. Apologies then. That was stupid of me.

Everyone has a different idea of what the CCS is and should be.

but i will say now, quite clearly. next time i CCS, my company will be doing it

with a profit margin

that's fine

we've had this discussion when funding conferences, people going to conferences, reimbursement, for-profit endeavors, time-based proposal, project-based proposals, etc.

*le shock*

selsta: agree. If we're happy with the value exchange, it's no biggie.

If we think the price is too high, we'll ask for adjustment.

And that's not to say that the 'individuals' who have been making CCS's haven't already been marking up their work by a percentage to simulate a profit margin from a company either.

funding yourself via company is just a way of getting a little more money lol. Why not just ask for more?

because my impression was that people contributed because they gave a shit, not because they wanted a profit margin

and it seemed to be proven by the ridiculously low rates that some people charged

as it was a side gig, or hobby, or something they wanted to improve in the world

but it seems that was mainly my own perception

nah that's a large part of OS, at least Monero, historically

for sarang it's not a side gig

Sorry midipoet last question actually. Would you be ok with it if it was a company doing it with no profit margin?

there were real issues that rehrar's solution addresses

If so, I may consider at-cost proposals in the future if it would be the most palatable for many in the community.

if they actually did it not-for-profit, as opposed to a throw away line in a CCS, of course.

why would i not think that better?

i mean the only person who benefits from the profit, is the profiteer, no?

unless i am mistaken?

because it seems you've been against the fact they were companies the whole time, so I'm just verifying and untangling 'company' from 'profit'

well, MAGIC was a not-for-profit

that the was the last sarang proposal (that i know of)

i didn't say anything there

I'm not against profit margin, they are needed, my last proposal had a bonus in it (profit margin).

midipoet: understood. Thank you for answering.

I'll take this into consideration for the future.

MAGIC is actually a charity though, now i think about it

maybe they can make profit

But if I do at-cost proposals everywhere, I won't make any money to live, would have to shut down the company, let sarang go back to not working on Monero at all, and get another job myself.

But if you say that Monero should be the only place I do at-cost proposals, well, I may not disagree with that either.

that's the real world for you rehrar

we're building a new one here

Receiving funding from MAGIC and receiving it from an employer are handled very differently in the US

i thought General Fund paid you to do work for Core?

midipoet: true. But this isn't enough for me to employ sarang from my own funds. :)

and my primary goal with hiring him on was to have him work on Monero things again

so I would be taken care of, absolutely. But we would be minus one sarang noether, which I think is a tragedy.

If that's a sacrifice some people are willing to make though in the interest of some arbitrary standard of purity, then perhaps that's what must be done.

I wasn't, and am still not, willing to make that sacrifice. So here we are.

i don't think its necessarily arbitrary, nor it is the view shared by everyone.

indeed, OS, was built (as far as i undertsand it) on a not-for-profit basis, no?

and yet, you wish to bring profit to the table

Please no. Monero moves because of research like that done by sarang (and surae et al) and implemented by moo

* Please no. Monero moves because of research like that done by sarang (and surae et al) and implemented by moo et al

mooo

opportunity costs :)

it's not an arbitrary standard of purity

Well. Thank you for the discussion midipoet. I will consider at-cost proposals in the future.

what a horrible lie to perpetrate

that's how the community gets eroded

xmrscott[m] is right

one of the vulns this community and our systems have is people gaining trust by fiat

their influence eventually reduces to the efficacy of their rhetoric

endogenic: so I don't really understand. Are you for or against this proposal? :P

are you asking for my approval? because if i disapprove you will discard my opinion anyway

my point is beyond a boolean approval of your proposal

sounds like a no

it's an essential point. the community has an attack surface

nioc i have no interest in the proposal

I understand, but I'm interested in your opinion on this proposal specifically.

Ok.

do not put words in my mouth. it's clear you dont want to know what i'm saying

but what i'm saying is important for monero's survival even if you arent ready to hear it yet

whether a leader is good or bad can be seen by the full view of the results they have. you find the same words in even the bible

same kind of words

people should be careful of accepting a short term solution that sacrifices the long term

and should be careful of their blindness to problems in the long term

this problem is easy to see in e.g. network security but more subtle to people in e.g. social integrity

because people have blind spots

other projects will eat monero alive

they do not care

people may want to contribute to the quality of cryptocurrencies overall but few actually can contribute

to monero itself

i'm ready to be ridiculed for sounding vague because i know this is key to monero's success

dont take its existence for granted. capital will flow wherever. many people who dont have our sincerity easily disregard monero for problems just like this

they look at the community as a bunch of amateur lunatics

because, in part, you cant make up your minds about getting our shit together for monero

instead we now have to face the question of whether community crowdfunding can work for researchers

and whether the community will even stick up for them

it's no wonder the noethers dropped off

you virtually need some for profit killers to come in just to survive as a contributor to monero

but among those companies, the ones who truly prioritize monero are few to none

people say sweet things but look at the results

.bbl

🙃

By experience the community won't stick to them unless they do something about it. Rehrar is doing his part, bringing him back. The feeling is a type of begging, I've been there. I just didn't care if I was helped or not, ridiculed or not, I had to do something about it. So I just kept working for Monero, because what you say endogenic is true, few actually are able to contribute to monero itself.

lh1008[m]: in fairness though, if we throw money at it, people will contribute if we make companies that make profit from it, people will be employed to contribute.

it's literally what every other project is doing

yes but independent research can be different

as can the consequence of whether monero as a project has its own academics on board

they throw money at websites, at devs, at social media managers, and community coordinators, at hype merchants, etc and so on

and what incentivizes them to serve monero

is monero the same as these other projects?

if not, or if we dont want it to be, we shouldnt judge right and wrong by what the others do

but by ourselves instead

for profit is not inherently bad

the problem is whether the set of results we evaluate is complete. profit for who? and when? and at what cost?

it's clear - what consequence does a choice have on monero?

actions we take will exist forever

and exert an influence on us through the entire very lengthy future

choose wisely

endogenic: sorry if I'm missing something, but what are you proposing? (that's not a mock question - just trying to better understand)

CCosta[m]: i suggest the community look at and confirm the specific problems raised instead of finding a solution that approximates a short term apparent fix

dont get me wrong there is nothing inherently wrong with third party companies contributing to work

but we have a need for independent researchers and the safeguarding of that role

for years i saw those researchers have to justify their own funding

sure, the funding came fairly easily

but overall the community should be doing everything it can to protect the rare gift of having independent and high quality researchers on monero

having these people fear for their funding and personal safety is a point we should be .. frankly.. very self critical of

it's like saying we dont prioritize monero itself

i and rehrar etc have alternate solutions but monero should fight for its ability to be self sustaining

i doubt i'll gain traction talking about this

it's a losing battle

and generally we only see innovations or pushes to fight in new and nascent projects

that's why i'm concerned for monero

that and the fact i've heard some people in "DeFi" recently refer to monero as "mature" which is a bad sign

it's how people called bitcoin because it is stagnant and unchangeable

we get to decide what destiny monero has, consciously or not

and it comes down to the destiny of who becomes influential in the community

sounds hokey but it's a fact

it's not hard to surpass monero if we lose what makes us special and what allows us to survive by continuously changing and integrating lessons

we need guaranteed funding for sarang and surae if that work is on monero and that money needs to

go straight to their hands

and we need to ensure they feel safe

by hiring a consultant to protect them

while people debate whether setting a special case for these specially trusted and integrals individuals sends the wrong message, we by default give way to a worse alternative

a fresh fruit will rot

i sadly dont know if monero will overcome that

monero isnt ready to be a "mature" technology yet

it simply is not actually mature

what that really means is it's deD

dead

<endogenic "by hiring a consultant to protec"> ?

anon_82641[m]: i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/351/134/a24.jpg

the resources of the project should be at sarang's disposal - it's not like we know better than him.. that's why we hired him! .. when the project is in the hands of mechanisms instead of who knows then it's not in the hands of the living

does that make sense?

and perhaps you're not familiar with recent doxxing attacks, but there's also the tax concern, as well as legal aid

how can we expect anyone to use monero if we ourselves dont think these problems are important to solve for such a case

s/integrals/integrous/

So hazard pay basically