Hello

I am enthusiastic about the project, and concerned at the same time

hi

I've been doing some research toward the profitability of mining monero, and I came to the conclusion that it's not profitable unless your power is essentially free

I think this will really restrict mining to acts of altruism

And you could also mine monero on the CPU and some other coin on the GPU, say ETH

But I personally don't know anybody that's doing that

The taxation regime in the US makes (fully legal, I suppose) Monero mining a problem, certainly.

So anyway, shouldn't mining be more profitable if we want to secure the safety of the project?

It looks like you get taxed coming and going -- once as income for the mining itself, and again as a commodity when you sell it or exchange it for something with a taxable value.

I didn't even take taxes into account yet

Just plain cost of hardware, and power

If another coin is more profitable for you, you can mine that one and exchange it for monero.

I haven't done any research into the cost of electricity for mining, but a friend did and found it potentially profitable.

The more people do this, the lower the hash rate will be, and it will end up reaching some equilibrium.

What kind of person steals from own community? shorturl.at/jmDM4 Your own leaders are laughing at how stupid you are falling for thier 'Magical Crypto Friendship'.

Not in my country at 22 cents per kw

Serus: I think it's less than half that here.

It's always going to depend, to some extent, on where you are in the world.

yeah, power costs are kinda ridiculous where I live

I do mine it rn on my home server

So essentially as an act of altruism

I have another (Danish) friend for whom it would definitely be a way to lose money.

I am also running a full node on it

I wonder whether anyone mines it by infecting government computers with mining bots.

That'd be hilarious.

haha, wouldn't that be something

"I wrote a SCADA virus to mine Monero."

Someone did it to some uni supercomputer IIRC.

moneromooo: yeah, but then you are forced to live on mining waves

"Bonus: it causes huge problems for the plutonium enrichment program the SCADA system manages."

What are "mining waves"?

I think I'm going to use the gov-infection idea in a story I'm writing.

Thanks! This has been a productive discussion.

I'd rather have consistent profitability, doesn't even have to be a lot (As to not incentivise huge centralized mining operations), could be like $20 monthly or something

With mining waves I mean people starting to mine it until it's not profitable anymore, coin gets forgotten for a while, which in turn causes it to be profitable to mine again, and you get a new influx of miners and the process repeats.

So at its lowest point the network strenght is at its weakest

I'd rather have good network strenght all the time, rather than a massive amount of miners being turned off at once leaving the network vulnerable

This effect isn't very pronounced on monero.

10% short term noise maybe.

That's not too bad

But I am thinking it'll get worse with an increase in adoption

Probably not. The more adoption, the higher the market cap, the more miners that can be accomodated, the more stable the hash rate.

Handwavy for the details of course.

It's much worse for small adoption coins, where a large miner that's, eg, 5% of a larger coin can be > 50% of the smaller coin.

I wonder sometimes how much of BTC could be co-opted by Chinese government just sending out a directive to every miner who benefits from power subsidies for cryptocurrency mining.

(speaking of big miners)

It already happens, no?

I'm not sure.

With like big exchanges maintaining address blacklists

And some big mining pool

Oh, no, I mean co-opted in the sense of the miners deciding en bloc to make decisions about what transactions go through the blockchain -- not exchanges manipulating things within themselves.

Hilariously, delisting Monero on Coinbase in some respects frees Monero from outside manipulation.

Well, some big pool is already doing that afaik

I haven't heard that, but then . . . I don't pay much attention to the news.

Saw it mentioned in a video, so take it with a big grain of salt

okay

Is the act of mining a matter of public record for Monero, or is it completely private?

coinbase tx are public

You don't see who gets it though.

ok amount is public

^ more accurate

But it's not going to show my ip address or anything?

Do people have to use coinbase?

Well, if your ISP spies on you, it can work out you're sending a block you have not received, so it can deduce you found that block.

vtnerd is planning to add P2P encryption, which should make this a lot harder.

so i guess mine through a vpn if you dont want your ip leaked

idc what my isp knows im just trying not to get hacked lol

is there an eta on p2p encryption?

knowledgewizard4: are you solo mining, or through a pool? if the latter, just make sure you use your pool's SSL ports

otherwise the address you're mining to will be visible.

to hide the fact that you're mining altogether, yeah, use VPN

Hi. One question! I use the Trezor Model T with the GUI...works great! What happens if Trezor goes out of business? I do see the Problem in a 12 words seed of my Trezor to a 25 words seeds of Monero...Would there be a solution?

Look on the bright side. At least you don't need to obsess over signs of life from FUK now.

danielk[m]: afaik it is possible to covert seeds

hey all

anyone active for helping?

sorry, i don't help revolutionaries

no worries buddy

All you are 'fighting' for is e-penis of a guy you never met, that doesn't even have common decency to pay you for your time.

Do you think they care about Monero, or privacy or anything other than money?

ndorf: oh this is all theory for me currently, i'm not a miner, but thank you!

man this bot is persistent

the spammer is really proving how important crypto and especially monero must be, to a layman like me who is only passingly interested, if he has to go to this much effort to attack it!

i know that i for one have become much more interested in monero now that it has adversaries attacking it so aggressively! it must really be something!

has there been discussions on dynamic block times?

knowledgewizard4: not sure if bad guys are "attacking monero" or someone just did something stuped (like having a password "1234" and chanserv control..)

ksk: no, it's a persistent spammer. He's also probably referring to the network attacks during November/December last year

endor00[m]: I myself was referring to being banned from this channel not too long ago - aka someone got control of it.

yeah there was some weird +b *!*@*

yea the channel takeover was not monero related

happened to multiple freenode channels

ah okay, thanks.

if i choose simple, simple bootstrap or advanced mode at installation GUI what are the advantages or disadvantages of them? may someone explain for me?

thanks..

i couldn't figure out this part

simple sets you up on a public node

simple bootstrap sets you up on a public node and downloads the blockchain in the background

advanced downloads the blockchain

simple = you're up and running right away but are relying on someone else's node for data

simple bootstrap is as simple until you have the whole blockchain... then it relies on itself

so you can still make txs right away too

advanced means you have to wait for the whole chain before you can make any txs

could be 6 hours... could be 2 days

chain is about 100GB

<selsta "danielk: afaik it is possible to"> Thx!

Is this the right place to ask questions relating to an issue with monerod, or should I ask on #freenode_#monero-dev:matrix.org ?

It is the right place.

Ok. I was trying to download the initial blockchain of Monero on Arch Linux, and it was working fine until it was like 90-something percent done. Then, it now "spams" the log file with errors that looks a lot like GitHub issue 7052. However, instead of showing up every two minutes, it happens constantly. Now, it doesn't actually crash, but it instead downloads the blockchain data way slower.

By the way, I did post it the GitHub issue here: monero-project/monero #7052#issuecomment-792435914

You can run with --log-level 0,*stack*:FATAL to silence those.

Or enable/allocate huge pages, you'll get a bit more speed.

It's already silenced when viewing directly from stdin, instead of reading the log file. Now, my question is, will it run at the normal speed?

Depends what you call normal speed :) It's nornal to slow down a fair bit when it starts checking PoW.

Huge pages will give you a bit more speed (assuming it's what it's telling you about).

Gathering the stack trace info itself *can* be slow, depending on I'm not quite sure what.

What's weird is that before these errors happened, it was using less than 25% CPU, now it uses over 60%. I have 6 cores.

Mochi101: thanks for the info. I couldn't find prune option. where is it?

That's because by default it'll skip some verification for blocks which match what it knows are good, trusting people who built the binary for this. It speeds sync up significantly.

But it only knows this up to a certain point, apparently about 90%.

revolutionary, monero.stackexchange.com/questions/…runing-in-the-gui-monero-wallet-gui

moneromooo: Oh ok, that makes. Also, can you point me in the right direction on how to enable huge pages on Manjaro/Arch Linux. I've googled and there seems to be very little online resources on how to do this.

*makes sense

What is a confirmation on a transaction? Is it a block that's been mined that has the transaction down the chain?

You'd build your kernel with support (it might already have). I forget which config it is, but search for HUGE.

Then plonk some number in /proc/sys/vm/nr_hugepages IIRC.

leonardus, yeah. its just that your transaction has been mined into the chain

Something around 1500 should do.

i.e., that its in a block that has been added to the chain.

Understood, thanks

So would that mean once a transaction has its first confirmation, the rate at which the number of confirmations go up after that is independent of the fee?

Seems there's a lot of huge page configs...

the number of confirmations is simply the number of blocks that have been mined after the one that included your transaction on the chain

The HUGETLB stuff is that.

Some people count the block including your tx at one confirmation. I'm not sure there's a canonical definition.

the fee is just an incentive for miners to give priority to your transaction over somebody else's when there's not enough space in the block to include both

the rate at which the number of confirmations go up after that is independent of the fee? >>> true

yes, once it's in the chain it's in there

Same slope, but possibly different delay before it goes up.

Oh you said that, nvm.

So I have a concern and I think I've mentioned it here before, but if it takes 2 minutes (on average) for a block to be mined, I'm having trouble seeing XMR being used in place of Visa, MasterCard, etc in real-world transactions. Even if the merchant wants to only wait for 1 confirmation, it's not viable to have people waiting 2 minutes for the transaction to clear.

i should write this down so I can just link to it. basically, its a trust thing. Are you going to go through the hassle of performing a double spend for a 3$ cup of coffee?

you don't have to wait

exactly

no. also, if you do decide to do that, you can not go back to that coffee shop

because they know you suck

now, if you're buying a car, then both parties will probably want to wait

Also, monero can't take that many txes anyway. Bitcoin can't either for that matter. That's a job for layer 2.

moneromooo: What's layer 2?

and as its magic internet money, theoretically most purchases would occur while your sitting at your desktop. and there, whats the rush?

and compared to Visa there is no fee for the receiver and no possibility of charge back. IMO strong argumets why a vendor would offer it

Things like lightning and the like,

Granted, it's kicking the can down the road to some extent :)

layer 3 wen?

When you do it.

er, sorry. wen u do it

so never

:(

bitcoin's working out the kinks on lightning

The biggest kink for Lightning on BTC right now seems to be "it takes a day and a pile of money to 'withdaw' from the blockchain and stick it in your Lightning wallet".

right, which won't be an issue on monero thanks to dynamic blocksize

(the second-biggest being "the wrong network hiccup could invalidate the whole Lightning thing and screw you out of a bunch of money)

s/)/")

argh

can't regex today

bots gone i guess

No, I mean *I* can't type it correctly.

I forgot about the bot altogether.

anyway -- mismatched quotes

ENOQUOTE

is the main thing that channel states are only known to live participants?

I'm not 100% clear on the technical details, but apparently if there isn't a party to the Lightning wallet online 100% of the time the Lightning wallet goes away -- poof, gone.

diisssscoonneeeeeee ♪ ┗(＾0＾)┓ ♪

uhm, who has a 100% uptime?

There's some kind of work-around for this called "watchtowers", as I've heard it, but I don't know what that does.

charolastra: Yeah, that seems like kind of a problem.

i mean, from my doofus armchair, that seems like something a sidechain could tackle

"nice lightning node you have there. would be a shame if some DDoSed it"

but then your putting muh blockchain on a blockchain!@

Yo, dawg . . .

i heard you like blockchains

<yo> ye

Why aren't sidechains the solution for BTC slowness, anyway?

you'll have to ask what BTCs issue is, first

and the answer isn't full blocks

What *is* the answer?

charolastra: Do you know?

a takeover of the company controlling BTC through the banking network. making them artificially limit block size

nonsense! why would the banks want to take over a fintech revolution?

That's easy.

that ushers in an era of unprecedented financial surveillance?

to slow it down

har

it's all about control

So . . . the proximate cause still seems to be full blocks.

sort of. artificially so they can push their 2nd layer BS

Did you know that all witdraw-buyer-seller-depoist chains are trackable in Monero? No? You should have read Breaking Monero. How many people are you endangering with your 'privacy' coin?

Hi there. Not sure if its the right place to ask, if not please let me know, but anyone knows a datacenter where you can rent vps/dedicated servers to mine monero? :P

Any dedicated server place would do AFAIK. VPS, not so, probably everyone rejects those.

and even with a dedicated server you would lose money doing so

Well yeah, i already run some dedicated servers/vps in germany for other purposes, i use free cpu time on them, quite well perfoming. Anyhow, using it just for mining is not proftitable. So was checking other locations, where things are usally cheaper, russia, iran, sweden...but i cant find anything profitable tbh

That's not a surprise.

so well, is there any hint how to mine monero in a good way?

Adding hosting fees on top of the other costs is likely to destroy profit margin.

yeah...

1. move to an area with cheaper electricity utilities

2. buy something with appropriate specs

3. mine at home

entry level

if you have the money up front: buy good CPUs and required hardware and do it yourself

I hear Arkansas is good for that.

optional:

4. do it secretly and evade taxes

thanks apotheon, actually i already thought of that, i am in germany here, sweden has a hell of low prices on power, i reallly thought of getting a flat there :P

(not recommended: highly illegal)

You might be better off in Iceland, from what I've heard.

but first i thought there should be cheap server somewhere on the world, getting flat in. se is like well...not easy to do :P

Yeah, step 1 can be a major pain.

That username seems like a cross between Thor and Theo de Raadt.

. . . or maybe Thor and Storm (of the X-Men).

:P

. . . or all three.

ah, gone now

well, Thor would not run!

He would just storm out.

moneromooo: good call

Hey I'm looking for some math on EAE attacks, primarily what I'd like to know is that, if eve repeatedly sends Monero to Alice, then Alice sends all of the money received by her to an exchange in one go, how many inputs from Eve are needed until plausible deniability drops to 10%? What about the linear case?

How does this number of needed malicious sends to reach 10% increase as ring size increases? What are some equations involved?

Thanks!

That sounds like a question for #monero-research-lab.

It depends a lot on the exact details though.

I sent a question there but didn't get a response, so I thought I'd try here

What exact details are needed? I'm trying to look at the worst case scenario.

Or is that too much? How would I calculate a more measured scenario? What input variables are needed?

Did you look at "Breaking Monero" from sarang ? Might be good leads there.

I saw the video on EAE attacks but they didn't get much into equations, preferably someone would have written a math paper up I could take a look at.

test

test?

ty

Does anyone know much about patents?

yes, they are worthless

Specifically I was trying to lookup patents owned by ciphertrace, and I managed to find 3 patents that ciphertrace bought in the last 3 years, the thing is if I'm reading this correctly, and that's my main question, if i'm reading this correctly, the CEO of ciphertrace sold his own company patents he himself registered, this is normal?

fred2k, what id want to do if I had the time and skillz, is 1. rent awesome dedicated server. 2. offer cheap vps services 3. mine in background at low priority

i guess the costly part of that though is all the IP space needed

gingeropolous, thats not a bad plan...not at all

can't you just "NAT" everything?

not if the clients want to actually host things like websites. can't really do dns with a port afaik

well, if you sell vps, you should give earch vps/customer a public ip

yeah, i mean i've been paying 2$ a month for a 35 gb 1 cpu 2 gb ram vps for.... years now

just set it up, then advertise on lowendbox.com, boom. profit. and mine.

especially with websites you can host everything on one IP. the webserver routes according to domain name

when hosting only websites yes, but a vps customer _needs_ his own ip. They usally host other services like mail, ftp, gameservers etc...

yeah, although alot of that could be taken care of by reverse proxies. just limit your offer a little

Hi

Is there a variant of monero that allows smart contracts?

or I guess a privacy focused blockchain that allows smart contracts

CoolerX: pretty sure no.

This mentions Enigma reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/7pbnz2/monero_based_smart_contracts

hmm

never heard of that one

At least one claimed to do so but was a scam through and through.

there's also Tari, but i'm not sure if it's full on "smart contracts" in the classic sense or no

gingeropolous, the ip costs, especially with ipv6 could be handeled, other isps have that cost too. The bigger problem is that you will need a somehow big customer base to get a decent free cpu time. And that means advertesting, customer support, backup solutions, etc...

<CoolerX "enigma.co"> the secret token

It's most definitely not a variant of monero. It's based on mimblewimble and new code.

<TheBlackInstinct> Why is everyone a bot here? And using a weird syntax

I'm not. So your assertion relies on facts not in evidence. You might be one though.

also another that is Not a fork of monero is Dero. it has private transactions on mainnet and public smart contracts on stagenet

Well, then ethereum :)

.eth

Was dero not somewhat scammy ? I forget, but the name rings such a bell...

Might be confusing with another, not sure.

so many scams so little time

its kinda interesting. server is written in go. i think. and they are active development

^ dero that is. they just released a version with "smart" contracts that use some for of basic

10% premine?

i mined dero for a couple months on a spare server. I have to seed stored in a password manager so I can see the date I created it was several months before the genesis block. They must have re-launched or something

guess I could try to restore it one of these days and see

<TheBlackInstinct> It literally says "bot" next to your name xD

<TheBlackInstinct> Btw I need some advice

From my point of view, you're the DisBotXMR3 here

<TheBlackInstinct> Due to various reasons I can't buy crypto in my country. I've been mining for 3 days but at this rate I'll get 1 USD worth of Monero every 3-4 weeks

<TheBlackInstinct> What do I do 😔

<TheBlackInstinct> I'm assuming you all are in a cult or something haha and not interacting with discord directly, but rather using some kind of chat node. For privacy purposes I guess, but I dunno really

i agree. you're the Bot here :p

<sech1> Wrong 😄

^^^

yep. IRC is the main room. its relayed to other stuff like discord, matrix, bananachat,

peanut butter jelly time!

er, back in estimated 10.00274 minutes

Precise - yet inaccurate.

TheBlackInstinct, clearly you should buy mining services to mine some monero

but they don't exist

introducing TotallyMiningMonero, a service where you send BTC to totally pay for servers that mine monero for you

like it

its totally mining monero and definitely not just exchanging bitcoin for monero

And you know that because you lose 10% of your money rather than 1% ?

lol

But Nicehash can do exactly that

well there yah go

Pretty sure you can find lots of people who can lose you 10%.

well thats the premium to get that sweet monero

banana

peanut butter jelly time!

a can lose you 10% for a very small fee

<Deejus> Mine something more profitable then swap it for Monero

I hear data mining is very profitable.

Hi

Does monero allow NFTs in anyway?

or colored tokens

like if I wanted to implement a decentralized voting system

They're theoretically possible, but nothing exists to make use of coloured coins.

on ethereum they use smart contracts that mint new tokens you can use to vote

just basically keeping track of a balance

but it's not private in anyway

Privacy is a requirement for your particular use ?

I don't have a particular use case

but voting in general is supposed to be private

Well, there's a fork of Monero where you can create arbitrary custom items and then trade/give them. Not Monero per se though.

The custom item part is also not private either.

Tari?

No, Townforge. Tari's not a Monero fork at all.

But the best would probably be a separate chain per vote, to avoid spamming a single chain with all the votes.

Make it merge mined with monero for security.

"per vote" meaning "per election" here ofc.

hmm

how does that work? you periodically submit the sidechain hash to monero?

Merge mining ?

yes

You mine monero blocks, and include the hash of a merge mined chain block in it.

There are other constraints of course, but that's the gist of it.

The merge mined chain accepts monero blocks as its own if they point to a valid merge mined chain block.

where/how do you include the hash of the merge mined chain block?

In a merge mining tag in extra in the coinbase tx.

rad

<TrooperZ> what would you guys rate the hash to watt ratio for one of my old laptops

<TrooperZ> about 1.1kh/s average using 12-14 watts

<TrooperZ> its an i7-5500u

moneromooo, merge mined chain means sidechain?

<moneromooo "Make it merge mined with monero "> kinda new to me on this. how does it help with security?

I dunno what sidechains are exactly.

well an independent blockchain

The merge mined chain gets a lot of hash from the main chain. The main chain gets a bit more hash due to the extra incentive from the merge mined chain's emission.

could be a copy of monero

but much smaller, starting from the genesis block

There's a danger that only one large monero pool merge mines the chain though, which would mkae it more vulnerable to a 51%.

Yes, but doesn't have to be. It just needs to have the same PoW.

Like tari will merge mine with monero, but is unrelated code, just uses RandomX with the same parameters.

Townforge is a monero fork though, and does the same.

hmm

I was thinking more of a proof of fraud type deal

looks like Townforge is setup to easily used as a backend for things other than the game UI right?

Not sure what you're saying here.

Proof of fraud, you wnat bytecoin or dash :D

moneromooo, it's different from merge mining

like not use the game ui but use a web ui for some custom items.

Or Craig Wright's fork.

Ah. Yes, you could do that, all can be accessed via RPC.

Like there's a separate program just for the in-game chat. I was thinking there could be a web based program just for the in game marketplace...

moneromooo, for implementing voting would proof of fraud be easier?

But I'd spend way too much time on the web stuff so nope :/

Dunno what proof of fraud is, so I don't know the answer to that.

have a sidechain where the votes the recorded, secure it using the main chain?

game marketplace online, ohh that would be cool. wouldnt be too hard... and i was wondering about using the server for any kind of data not really part of the game world... like user generated public and private plant profile data. like the USDA plant database.

It's probably not super well adapted. A custom item is just mostly two text fields and a group really.

gotya

I'd like to make a series of cryptographic games, the solutions to which combine to create a 25 word mnemonic, holding some amount of monero as the prize.

Is there a problem with that? like if 2 people solve the puzzles and get the key and try to withdraw the money to another wallet in that same 2 minute span, what happens?

Only one tx will be mined. The other will be a double spend and be rejected.

Might take a block to reorg itself if two miners mine competing chains, each with a different of those.

but in the most likely case the first transaction will be on the longer chain, correct?

Yes.

So I was thinking for the first game there'd be a handwritten cipher to solve, as well as some form of steganography, If you had to solve puzzles for Monero, what would you like to see?

couldn't you game this easily by submitting second, but with double the fee?

presumably the prize amount would be worth it

If you send to a miner who changed their daemon to swap txes this way, yes, if you call that gaming.

ah, the default is to pick the earliest regardless of fee amount? i hadn't realized that

makes sense. the alternative sounds like it's somehow exploitable

(laughs in BTC)

If I understand correctly the fee market model is why bitcoin transaction fees are ludicrously high, right? (In addition to no dynamic block size)

yeah it's a problem in ETH land as well where you can easily e.g. frontrun other people's DEX trades